Hoods

WipEout · Post by **WipEout** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:37 am

I just got a 65 Karmann Ghia from a friend (for free, no less!!), and he gave me a front hood for a 411 or 412 (I'm not sure which...) in case I needed the spare metal for welding or something. Aren't these cars a little rare in the US? I know they hardly sold in the states when they were released in the 70s, but from the looks of things, they're still pretty abundant... I thought these cars were pretty sparse and parts for them were hard to find. If they are a hard find, I would rather not cut up the hood for spare metal, if someone out there is in desparate need of an original, good-condition hood. Plus, the metal guages between a 65 Ghia and a 70something Type 4 are too different aren't they? Isn't the guage of a 411/412's body metal thinner than the older cars'?

DAVID MANN

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:17 pm

How on earth do you figure they are abundant? I used to travel the U.S. for a living. I drove unending miles. I have owned 411/412's all of my driving life (exept for that chevy embarrassment) I have seen...in my life a total of 11 two door 411/412 with factory 4 speed. I have owned two of those. From posts here , correspondence here and there and numerous polling of state DMV's...I figure there are at best...less than 100 2 door 411/412 driving in the USA. There are certainly less than that registered. Maybe 300+ 4 doors and about 400 wagons driving. Its been a couple of years since I was actively checking these things and as the last frontier of VW restorations...more are appearing... also more are disappearing. Save the hood...someone will eventually pay you money for it. Are you sure you are not mistaking type 3 parts for type 4 parts? Type 3's are relatively in abundance (not really) but for instance...my 412 is the only 2 door registered to drive in Texas. There is also a wagon and a four door registered...but thats it. Texas is the 2nd most populated state in the country behind California...lotta math involved here. Ray

WipEout · Post by **WipEout** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:02 am

When I said "abundant", I meant that it seemed that way, with what seemed like so many people posting on the 411/412 forums. Please don't get angry, cause that's what it looks like. I was right in assuming they were scarce. I live in SoCal, practically VW customization capitol of the world, and I've yet to see a 411 or 412, 2 or 4 door. I'm pretty sure the hood isn't a T3. It's too flat at the nose, and doesn't come to a point as much as a T3 hood appears to. Since the cars ARE sparse, I won't cut up the hood, I'll save it in case anyone needs one. I'm not too sure though, if it's a 411 or a 412 any ideas on how I could tell just from looking at the hood itself, or would I absolutely need to see the car it came off of? (I don't want the guy who gave it to me to wise up on the situation...

)

MchAlf · Post by **MchAlf** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:52 am

Hi' WipeOut.

411 / 412 hoods are easy to identify.
The 411 hood's have " eyebrows " over each headlight were the 412 hood's are straight at the front.

MchAlf.

Chris Percival · Post by **Chris Percival** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:18 am

412 also have pressing that hold a VW badge and a raised ridge I think, 411 ones do not.

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 3:25 pm

Hello!...actually I was not angry at all...just wondering where you might be and hoping that you were correct that 411/412 are abundant in your area....I would drive wherever that is to scavenge! Sounds like a 412 hood. Should have an intyernal cneter rib of sheet metal up the middle and two humps where the hinges bolt on with diamond shaped holes. Ray

WipEout · Post by **WipEout** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:57 pm

Sorry, I've yet to see a 411/412 around here yet! I know my friend has one hidden somewhere, otherwise, where did he get the hood? I've haven't been around enough to check it out though... As for the hood, there are no curves around the headlight areas, and there IS a ridge up the middle, to a point where the hood is raised and a VW logo once sat (the paint is extra-faded there, so the logo is imprinted into the color...) So, any ideas on how much one of these things would be worth? Please Email me with suggestions. evangelion_14@hotmail.com

DAVID MANN

[This message has been edited by WipEout (edited 01-30-2002).]

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:31 pm

Thats a tough one. For someone who needs one...it could be priceless...as with anything else. There is no question that parts are scarce. There is also a scarcity of ownership of type 4 cars...but as the last surviving ones are starting to come out of the farmyards, junkyards and barns....I believe that will increase. As is....probably in the neighborhood of $75-$100. Most people with lots of VW's sitting around in their lots are usually happy to actually see someone wanting parts off of that type 4 that has been sitting there for so long that they were about to scrap it. I usually get almost any body panel...around here in the $75 range. But if I needed a hood or anything....and had to look around for a month or so to find it....considering what I already have invested....I would fork out what you asked ...up to about 200 bucks.....any more and I would keep looking a little longer. Thats a big piece of sheet metal...100-125 would be a good price unless your are feeling friendly. I try to keep the prices of the parts I sell to people comensurate to how bad they need it with an eye to how little I spent for it. I have been known to give away things to the truely deserving just to see another 411/412 drive. Ray

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:48 pm

Holy geessss!

See my last post on here then to find the deal of the century!

I had no idea they were that rare!!!

... Dang now I am very tempted to keep the 412 4 door sedan... A beautiful car in my opinion... The bad thing is that the 911 would have to go

Decisions. Decisions.

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:16 am

Pillow, not trying to drive prices up...but yes, they are hard to find. Actually considering how few people actually drive and work on them, parts are not all that hard to find. Its just that...well with just the use of the forum here, the # of people wanting and driving these vehicles has gone up considerably in the last two years. Add 100 more drivers/owners....and parts will be very hard to find. Ray

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:35 am

"Add 100 more drivers/owners....and parts will be very hard to find"

... Scary!

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:15 pm

I had been saving this semi-rant for another time...but it sounds timely.
Just a personnal request for those contemplating buying or selling that odd 411/412 that you come across. These cars are few in number these days. At one time they were not. Most have been wrecked or crushed because no one was interested. I have been working on them since 1979. My first car was a four dour 411....alaska blue.
Think about it before you start working on a type 4...what kind of shape it is in...and what do you intend to put into it...or get out of it. I have seen so many people who say "rad car...how much!...I gotta have one!". There are no common parts of signifigance on this car, save for the rear hubs, the engine, the steering column...and a handfull of relays. All else is unique to the car series. Many people start these as projects...don't realize what they are getting into...and either run out of money...and sell the car for parts...or drive around with what it had on it when they found it in the barnyard....destroying parts of the suspension that are too expensive or hard to find, to be replaced. I think they should all be driven. They are a lot of fun. I think they should be driven as "run-em-till-they-drop beaters" only if they are found in a condition too far gone to be worth restoring correctly. That way at least you get some joy out of it. On the one hand, I know where quite a few parts are....bits and pieces really. So I am not really prepared to dump too much money out for parts. But...parts are getting hard to find for several reasons...a lot more new owners...more cars every month getting crushed...and the inevitable failed restos's and accidents.
My point: I ask that people think about what they are doing before you decide to make cash cows out of the parts of the cars you know about. The value to the industry, of this car is not high enough yet for that kind of consumerism. I'm a bit of a fanatic. If I need a hood...and the only one I can find in 3 months is $400...so be it. Most of the rest of the owners I know of will not pay high dollars for parts. They will scrap the car first...deeming it too expensive to restore. I would bet that many of you just tuning in have no real idea what it will cost you to complete these cars to make them dependable for long drives and daily driving. You have no concept what parts you are missing that will break very soon....I do! You cannot afford the basics of restoring one of these when people start inflating prices. Since they have probably never driven it yet, they have little personnal investment to keep them from doing this. I have been hearing the dollar signs "chinging" in peoples posts lately. Price the parts in deference to what you got them for. Rare or not...trying to make a killing on type 4 parts right now will only keep the # of cars down and the # of owners down, and hasten the demise of the marque. Anyway...end of Rant. Ray

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:46 am

I was amazed at the lack of interest in my FS post. Then I started getting curious about the market and culture around this vehicle... There is little to none! I am not sure if that is a good thing or bad? Most of the action is here or on www.type4.org...?

It seems that the 412 wagon or 4 door sedan is the best air-cooled VW ever made! Gas heat, optional A/C, and loads of cargo room. From what I hear the seats are actually nice too

Drawing a parallel from the T3 crowd I am amazed the lack of interest in the T4s... I do not understand all the rage with T3s, not my bag and you want to talk about a complicated T1 engine, Woof!

Looking at the classifieds it seems people darn near give away working T4s! Heck the engines and gas heater are worth more than the whole car! This is crazy!

End Rant.

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:39 am

Pillow, I concur. I discovered long ago that the type 4 is indeed the most advanced and option packed air-cooled vw ever built. Handles better and is faster than the rest also. Just wait until you see the basic design inside of a type 4 manual trans.....people would die to have that level of simplicity for a rebuild in other gearboxes. The problem, at least for me...I cannot speak for others, is that because we do not have a million owners and enthusiasts to find buyers among, when someone posts parts...or a whole car....it cannot be an immediate assumption that among the limited group of owner/restorers that you will quickly find someone who has the money and time to immediately do something about it. I already have a 412 that will not be swapped for another, I have limited storage space, and it requires enough money just to complete restoration of the one I have, that unless I desperately need and have budgeted for the parts you are selling....I cannot and will not do anything about the offer. If you had a box of NOS balljoints....That would be a different story. I would forgo coffee for two months to afford to get them...because of their tradability alone. I have made the mistake before of aquiring whatever I could when it became available....and then coming up short when I desperately needed to purchase a part that I didn't have. I spend the equivalent of a medium sized car payment everymonth on my 412. I think there is interest out there for your offers. Its just such a small client base right now that it may take a little while. If you ever get in a pinch where you have to move type 4 parts that you havn't sold....let me know. I will help you sell them or find storage...or buy what I can...rather than see them scrapped. Ray

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:46 am

These really seem to be good cars. Again I am surprised the following is not stronger. Then again I think people are afraid of the T4 engine and especially the FI. Heck even in the bus crowd there are people who will not even own a '72 and up bus because of the "expensive" "nobody works on it" T4 engine.

I learned last night that the heard of cars the guy is selling has been FS for over 2 years! In that time one T1 Squareback has been sold. No rush I guess

------------------
Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"