Type 4 Master cylinder

yank2k · Post by **yank2k** » Sat May 18, 2002 3:45 pm

Hello, I am looking for a Type 4, Master cyliner part# 411 611 015b, 1973, 4 cyl, 1.7 liter. Thanks for your help.
yank2k@yahoo.com

JGREENWOOD · Post by **JGREENWOOD** » Mon May 20, 2002 11:41 pm

I just layed hands on one 3 weeks ago that has been on the shelf for a year or so. Brand new FAG cylibder in the box. The price I am told is about $196. The owner of this wholesale shop saye that the mstercylinder for type 4 is still a live part # in the European manufacturers and still appeared at least in the 2000 catolog from both FAG and SKF. He also said they do not have disscounts on that cylinder among other. He showed me dealer list cost. It was $178. Unless you find one that has been on the shelf for a very long time and was gotten at almost no cost to the seller, you will probably not spend much less. If the cylinder is too long on the shelf, the seal will be suspect. Much as I hated to, I built a weld on bracket for the pedal cluster and now use a mastercylinder from a late model superbeetle. It works fabulously...and is easily replaceable. Ray

Jadewombat · Post by **Jadewombat** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yank2k:
<B>Hello, I am looking for a Type 4, Master cyliner part# 411 611 015b, 1973, 4 cyl, 1.7 liter. Thanks for your help.
yank2k@yahoo.com </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rebuilt my m/s in my '73 about a year ago. The bore is the same as a bug m/s and the rebuilt kit had a new piston/seals, etc. Just be sure to use some brake paste, available pretty much anywhere.

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:58 am

Yes, I have done that. You will need either a superbeetle or better still...a type 3 cylinder. DO NOT USE THE PISTONS. Seals and valves only. Else you will sooner or later kill yourself. The bug pistons will cover up the compensating ports. The chamber spacing is not the same on the pistons. Been there and done that. Learned the hard way. It will falsly give you a very high tight pedal. In panic braking...it will starve for fluid...cauing poor or no braking. There are differences in ATE (Teves) and FAG outer pistons seals. They fit the pistons differently. They will fail if mixed. A scheaffer type 3 or bug kit usually has extra seals to fit either cylinder. One note about honing. Honing is simply to cut away rust and pits. The bore must be polished to get rid of deep hone marks. This is not an engine cylinder. If you look at a brand new cylinder, you will see either no hone marks...or very very fine ones made by the equivalent of about 1500 grit. The rubber seal edges wear very quickly because of hone marks. Especially the outer shaft seal. This is due to the extra seal pressure exerted by the inner seal lips, and the lack of lubrication. Ray

Chris Hobbs · Post by **Chris Hobbs** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:47 pm

You might also try Tom Schwendeman in Ohio at 740-797-4689. He has quite a stash of NOS Type 4 master cyclinders, found one for my 412 at a price slightly better than new.

Be very careful about which one you order, though, we found out that there were at least 3 different Type 4 MCs--the hard way. I finally had to draw and send Tom a picture of the old one to get a match.

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:48 am

Chris, there are actually two configurations. Well...two manual and two power assist. They are both interchangeable within their systems. The difference is ATE or FAG makes. The cylinder castings bolt up under the dash for either FAG or ATE. Anything else is not type 4. The same for the power units which go in the trunk. I just recently found out that the power brake cylinder is unique (internally) to the 411/412 and fits nothing else. It is also still available for any shop that can order through ATE or FAG...and is very pricey. Ray

3rd_slow_411 · Post by **3rd_slow_411** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:56 am

I know it's been said before, but I didn't believe it... I just got a 'rebuilt' Master cylinder from a local Discount Auto Parts. It was an 'order-only' ( non-returnable ) part AND it is stamped "rebuilt Aug. 2000" on the box. It even has the white-ish preservative on the boot, also no rust. It cost $36 dollars and it is the exact same part I paid $120ish for last year. At $36 I had to find-out, and it is in better shape than the last one I bought.
When I lived outside Chicago-land I checked Autozone, Napa, Carquest and a mess of the local less-known shops with no luck. You really owe it to yourself to keep looking around at the regular auto parts stores.

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:08 pm

Yep, I am sometimes surprised too. New ones are still available actually. Its just that not every shop can order them You have to be an ATE or FAG dealer. Not just someone who stocks a few of those brands that you get from your warehouse conglomerate.
I would be leery of the cylinder until I saw it work if its rebuilt. Who rebuilt it? I definately dissasemble all rebuilt cylinders to clean and inspect them. The last two type 4 rebuilts I bought...over 5 years ago...were junk. Type 4 cylinders have a peculier defect that makes them hard to rebuild. Since the yare under the dash...not in open air, condensation stays on the outside edge iof the outer seal. It rust pits most cylinders in this area, causing damage to the outer shaft seal and causing leakage. If its over about .0003 deep in pitting, you will have to hone too deep to get proper sealing. Also factory cylinder finish has no hone marks. That destroys seals in some cases. especially where the bore diameter is marginal. These are not piston rings we are sealing. The pistons are not actually sup[posed to contact the bores. They are supports for the valving and cups, which are the seal. In the two rebuilds I had...one had rust pits that could not be honed out...and wern't. It worked well..for about 3 months. The other had really noticable cross hatching...measured out well, but never did seal up right. Very poor pedal. A light polishing with 1500 grit sand paper to knock the edge off the hone marks...and it worked fine. 9 out of 10 type 4 master cylinders do not fail because of bad bores and cups...per se....they fail from the rust pitting and the leaking outer seal. In wet climate, I bleed the brakes twice a year and once a year, pull the cylinder if you can..and keep that rust ridge from appearing. Sound like too much effort....just try and find new master cylinders...or fix a wrecked 412...from failed brakes. Ray

Davidf · Post by **Davidf** » Sun Aug 04, 2002 7:13 pm

Hi everybody, to give a longer life to the master cylinder, should we cut the rubber boost to help for more ventilation? Or drill a hole in the boost and fixe a tube outside... Ray was talking about missing fresh air.Just a idea...I have made a lot of modif to keep my 1971 bus alive...

David

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:22 am

Thats a really good question. I have often thought about possibly removing the boot altogether...or putting a little dessicant package inside. The year before last, i put in a brand ne cylinder. I was not driving much at all. Almost a year later, the pedal got spongey. I found condensation had put a ridge on the out side edge and ruined the outer cup. I have seen this a few times. Though until lately my 412 has not been 100% water tight...and had occasional high humidity...it cannot be any worse than being in the outside elements like in a type 1,2,3. The only correlation I could make was that it may have no chance to dry off cause no air goes past it. I had also though about tying in an air tube to the outside to keep it ventilated when I drive...but that would not help when it sits still. I think I will try leaving the boot off for a while. Maybe installing a fine mesh around the area to keep dust out. Ray