The "Bring it Back" 71 Super Vert Thread

[Piledriver]

Marc mentioned an Audi donor of about the same vintage for the rack at one point, but it really has pretty standard dimensions.

If you are capable of fabbing custom mounts there is probably a healthy choice of potential racks.

I dropped the perch 2-3/8" and it worked out just about perfect with the wheel/tire combo and the stock fenders.
Car was intended to be a DD with very marginal roads in places.

BUT: Just before the car was parked I found an early 944 in the pick-n-pull...

F&R suspension, brakes/axles/R&P all came off.

$100 well spent.

[mountainkowboy]

Does the 1303 suspension bolt on the 1302? If it does than isn't that is the "answer" to the shimmy?

Working on the premise that the answer to the above questions are Yes. I'm to understand that the 1303 lower arms are stamped pieces of trash....right, and know one makes an aftermarket replacement? Working on that scenario......I could "box" the factory lower arm to increase strength and rigidity...(remember I've never seen one.....so stay with me)....and add a radius arm. This could be done with reversible bolt-on mounts, since it is a convertible, it should be able to go to stock for resale value IMO, they are worth more unmolested. Lets say we will go with a Topline setup........lowering kit with sway bar and small diameter sport springs. Remember this is a street car, not a racer......it will be a daily driver that can be driven "spiritedly" when asked. Will not have an engine bigger than a 1776 and a mostly likely a stock trans and rear suspension......maybe a rear sway bar, but stock height not lowered, I want the Cal-Look rake.

[Piledriver]

Does the 1303 suspension bolt on the 1302? If it does than isn't that is the "answer" to the shimmy?.

Yes, it does, but it doesn't give you the smaller springs out of the box, and the 1303 didn't get R&P steering until ~late 74-75?
(have slept since then)

The late lower links don't fold up when you look at them or anything, but they take... oddball BJs, as do the late SB spindles of course.

"Takes/works with common/available parts" is a common sense outlook to mods you will see frequently.

On paper, simply converting to late super front suspension is the simple answer as it will indeed Simply Fit.
Reality is that there may be better answers using parts that aren't only available imported from Pakistan via carrier pigeon.

I agree that on a 'vert stock is typically a Good Plan.
But...in the case of the front suspension on an early Super almost anything else will be an upgrade.

It CAN work well, but looking back... we probably wasted a lot of $$$ and effort getting it there when for the same or less $$$ and effort we could have a better setup with pack and pinion etc.

If you are going to throw cash at Topline throw cash at late parts.

Coleman Racing can probably make you tubular lower links to your spec with your choice of BJ type for <$100 ea.

[Marc]

The R&P was introduced for `75, using parts adapted from FWD Audis. R&P simplifies the steering linkage considerably, eliminating the ridiculous body-mounted idler arm and several tierod ends. It's still not bulletproof, I've seen them bent from lightly tagging a curb, but it's a BIG improvement on the earlier steering setup. The frame head needs minor modification to fit the R&P, time well-spent IMO.
If you've got a decent salvage yard available where you can obtain all of the suspension/steering bits from a `75-`79, that could be a viable alternative to a heavy investment at Topline trying to make the best of the 1302. Mild lowering can be accomplished by moving the spring perch down on the strut housing (better than the crude coil-cut technique)...either costs zero dollars, just limit it to about 2" or other problems will arise. As has been mentioned, the late balljoints can be a P.I.T.A. to replace but the rest is pretty much a bolt-on deal. You'll still need some bushings and stuff from Topline as piledriver intimated since most boneyard rubber components are likely to be junk, but it'll be a better use of your money. Updating the front suspension of a 1302 won't devalue it to anyone who appreciates driveability. It will lose you the chance of getting 100% at the concours d'elegance, but it'll be much nicer to live with - and most of it IS reversible, so even the most diehard purist should accept your choice.

[mountainkowboy]

I think 2" will give the rake that I'm looking for. Don't know if R&P will be done.....DD not racecar, and the present steering is a vast improvement on the torsion beam IMO.

[Marc]

...the present steering is a vast improvement on the torsion beam IMO.

That all depends upon what you expect, I suppose. I'll take the Standard any day of the week, I like my suspension & steering components to both be firmly attached to the chassis rather than scattered randomly about between it and the body sheetmetal. VW adopted Mac strut to improve the boulevard ride, tighten the turning circle, increase the trunk volume, and most importantly lower production costs in order to compete with the Italian and Japanese shitboxes of the early `70s. I'd wager that less than 1% of those Fiat 128s and Toyota Corollas are still on the road today, they just aren't worth fixing. So far as I'm concerned, VW sold their soul when they abandoned their proven rugged design to play at the shallow end of the pool.

But if you want a Convertible newer than 1970, you've got to make the best of things.

[mountainkowboy]

Ok......I concede to the solidness of the beam, but the SB has its place and has survived the test of time as have the standards. This is my first SB and I have to say that I like it, probably because its looks like a standard for the most part and its a vert! Would I rather have a 69 vert.............yup.

All I really want is a nice DD, vert that I can play with, and NOT to do any mods that cant be reversed, with the Cal-look, that drives decent.

My quandary is the direction I will go on the front suspension. The present one is worn out, so I don't know what a "known good" 1302 drives like...............so do I rebuild the present one or change to the 1303.............that's the question, if it was a sedan, I wouldn't care what would be done.

[Piledriver]

The late suspension (as a set) is a direct swap to the early car with ZERO mods to the car.

If you use all the Topline bits to match, (late) you will allegedly be able to drop it from 2-5".

If you use Golf rear springs and perches you can shore a 2-2.5" drop and run ET40ish wheels, probably even a tad wider.
(may need spacers out back, but if you want Cal Look you want more meat out back anyway)

The late suspension is far less prone to the shimmies...
... but the wonky early steering setup (~anything non R&P, but the really early setup is worse) still has a ~dozen wear points.
(We are discussing the steering gear as a separate setup as it there were 2 sorry early setups that were very similar even though the struts changed completely, and the later R&P.)
If you replace EVERYTHING it will probably be OK for awhile, but some of the early parts at least used to be hard to get.

[Buggin_74]

The late suspension (as a set) is a direct swap to the early car with ZERO mods to the car.

There is a few issues, the 2 bolt supers have a larger center bore in the strut towers for the upper bearings so if you want to retro fit later struts in a 3 bolt car you will need to fit the earlier upper bearing assemblys to the late struts or enlarge the hole in the body.
Also the control arm inner mounting points are different, the early 3 bolt cars just have one central mounting hole where as 2 bolters have one high one and one low one so swapping it over changes the roll center.
In saying that I've got a 3 bolt setup in my 2 bolt car using the upper mount and it has no negative or positive effect.

Now this is not having a go at Marc or anyone in particular but is just a generalization but I see it all the time, a lot of the old diehard vw guys want to stand by the original Beetle and like to poo poo the Mac front end without having much to do with them, which is fine, each to their own.
There is no arguements the torsion bar setup is more robust but technology has come along way and with the parts for the mac front end there is a good reason nearly all the Germanlook beetles built for high speed driving on the track and autobahn are 1302/1303, they can be setup for some unreal handling.
Just watch the way Wallys 1303 cruises the autobahn on youtube at 140mph.

I've been building high performance Supers for almost 20 years now and have a very good feel of what works and what doesnt with them.
I did build high performance standards Beetles too, in the 90s I had a Mazda rotary powered 70 Beetle and with all the money thrown at that it still can't match a well setup Super.
That 1930s front end has it's limitations without spending a fortune replaceing it with something like a Mendola wishbone setup

I feel far safer in my 1303 at 110mph than I did in the 70
I have not had a shimmy problem in it for over a decade.
The main reason they get them is the repro rubber bushes made these days are poop quality, fit quality urethane bushings from Topline and it will never shimmy again.

Anyway with all you wanting is a nice street Beetle that can have a nice ride while lowered yet still be a fun car to throw around in the bendys it's very easily achieved with most of the gear available through topline.

[mountainkowboy]

I've been building high performance Supers for almost 20 years now and have a very good feel of what works and what doesnt with them.

Anyway with all you wanting is a nice street Beetle that can have a nice ride while lowered yet still be a fun car to throw around in the bendys it's very easily achieved with most of the gear available through topline.

Since this is a vert I don't want to modify the body. Do you think urethane bushings and Topline lowering kit with swaybar and there sport springs will "most likely" drive normally, (no shimmies)? Even with the worn out suspension, it corners pretty good.

[Marc]

...Since this is a vert I don't want to modify the body. Do you think urethane bushings and Topline lowering kit with swaybar and there sport springs will "most likely" drive normally, (no shimmies)? Even with the worn out suspension, it corners pretty good.

That'll make it pretty tough to provide camber/caster adjustability at the upper strut mount.
Don't overlook the idler arm bushing. The 1302 one is actually beefier than the late-style, but it still gets sloppy with age and introduces a lot of play in the steering linkage. At 2" drop you shouldn't need an aftermarket swaybar, but eccentric mounting bushings to pull it forward will restore the caster.
The salient point I've been hammering on since you bought the 185 tires is that they need to be on wider rims, and those must be tucked inboard to give the 1302 a fighting chance of avoiding the shakes, and that requires smaller-diameter springs to allow using rims with more backspace. Topline's MaXX struts are one off-the-shelf solution, or you could fab up something yourself. Their "Sport Springs" aren't as small-O.D., but they are cheaper and will work on stock strut housings, and they will make room for a wheel with a little more backspace which is a step in the right direction. I'd say it's worth a shot, there should always be a market for them (at .50 on the dollar) if you decide to go on to the next level. Don't forget the "Caster-Fix" bushings.


Mac strut was first used in 1949 on a low-end French Ford; its primary attraction is low production costs (much more expensive than conventional shocks to replace when the time comes, but that's not the manufacturer's problem). It can be an effective suspension if done right; Porsche uses it in the 911, for example. But compared to a properly designed double-A-arm setup its primary advantages are weight and simplicity (lower cost). The term "MacPherson Strut" encompasses anything with a sliding pillar-cum-shock absorber and one balljoint connected to a lower control arm...most, but not all, use the coaxial coil spring. As a rule, the single-pivot arm setup as found on Super Beetles is reserved for low-performance applications; it's the simplest/cheapest - if there's any expectations of handling capability, a lower arm will be incorporated which has two pivot points and is therefore capable of maintaining the wheelbase on its own...that's a huge step up from the gangly single-pivot layout. One of the weaknesses of Mac Strut compared to double-A-arm is the increased transmission of noise and vibration into the cabin; compliant rubber bushings are needed to reduce that. Getting rid of them and using stiffer material like urethane will stiffen things up considerably, and to be honest most people don't notice much noise over the cacaphony of an ACVW engine anyway - it's the most cost-effective improvement you can make.

[mountainkowboy]

That'll make it pretty tough to provide camber/caster adjustability at the upper strut mount.
Don't overlook the idler arm bushing. The 1302 one is actually beefier than the late-style, but it still gets sloppy with age and introduces a lot of play in the steering linkage. At 2" drop you shouldn't need an aftermarket swaybar, but eccentric mounting bushings to pull it forward will restore the caster.
The one salient point I've been hammering on since you bought the 185 tires is that they need to be tucked inboard to give the 1302 a fighting chance of avoiding the shakes, and that requires smaller-diameter springs to allow using rims with more backspace. Topline's MaXX struts are one off-the-shelf solution, or you could fab up something yourself.

Would the 5.5 Empi style spider/flower wheel work with the 185's? I am going to replace EVERYTHING but the steering box.

[Marc]

5½" is wide enough for the 185 tires. Do you know either the backspace or the offset (the "ET" number) on the rims?

BTW, all pre`75 Supers used the same steering box (unavailable new, "rebuilt" is the best you can do). The `74 style got a different Pitman arm, but if that's changed it can be used on the earlier cars.

[mountainkowboy]

Will have to find out..........that's the style of wheel I want to run.

[Marc]

EMPI's "Riviera style" 5½x15" rim is ET17, 3.91" backspace.

The stock 4x15" are ET40, approx 4" backspace; the optional 5½x15" "Sports" rim from VW made for the 1302 front end is ET26, approx 4¼" backspace.

So, the factory optional wheel increased the scrub radius by about a half-inch and the ET17s would be 9mm worse, nearly 7/8" greater scrub radius than the stock 4" rim.

They'll bolt on and probably won't rub with a mild drop, but they make the front end even more prone to the shakes than it is now. With all new urethane bushings you might be OK.

I've seen a lot of the EMPI Chinese rims which had severe runout and inherent imbalance. By sever, I mean ~¼" - most Standards can handle that but for a Super you want as close to perfect as possible (certainly <1/8").
Find a tire guy who takes pride in his work to do the balancing, and have him put the best two wheels/tires on the front. Well-equipped tire shops will have a truing machine, a giant lathe they can use to trim the tread if necessary.