Pulley question

[crvc]

I'm replacing the short block because of constant oil leaks. Every client comments on the leaks while telling me how they had a bug back in college.

I put in a degree pulley last year. When I put it in the replacement block it causes drag. That is, the flywheel won't turn by hand. Any idea why? I can't see any difference between the degree pulley and the three stock pulleys I've got. It slides onto the crankshaft easily while the older pulleys have to be tapped in. The degree pulley turns easily until I add the nut and washer.

I spend all weekend putting the block together with new bearings. Not done yet and had to ride a bike to work today.

Someone in a car yelled, "Where's the bug?" as I was walking the bike up a steep hill. Grrrr.

TIA,

kevin

[FJCamper]

Hi Kevin,

Lots of possibilites here. When you find the answer, please let us know.

If your flywheel is torqued on, and you tighten your degree pulley, you might be pulling the crank toward you and flywheel into contact with the thrust bearing and jamming rotation.

If you have a degree pulley with a slighly longer bolt that is pushing the degree pulley into contact with the case, moving the crank away from you.

Imagine the crank laid out on a work bench with both the fan pulley and flywheel torqued on. That assembly has to move backwards and fowards a few thousanths of an inch when in the main brearings, which is the amount of space we set when adjusting the crank end play with the shims between the crank and flywheel. Draw up the play with the degree pulley fit and you have no rotation.

You might also have a thrust bearing with the thrust "lip" or edge too small, allowing too much crank movement. You'd get this situation if you had a worn or line bored case, and a standard thrust bearing so that the bearing could actually shift fore and aft at few thousanths on its dowel. The thrust size does not refer to the bearings inner or outer diameter ... it means the bearing lip just outside the case.

It's late and I'm tired, so perhaps Marc could weight in with more accurate descriptions. I do recall that whenever I've run up against rotation lock caused by tightening down the crank pulley, it was excessive endplay.

FJC

[Marc]

Frank's on the right track, other than the longer-bolt theory (all that might do would be to bottom out in the crank before it holds the pulley on tightly - a thicker washer would be all that would be needed to resolve that).
You say that you've observed the problem with the aluminum pulley - how about with one of the stock ones? If there's no problem with a stocker, that should mean that it's just interference between the "backside" of the aftermarket pulley and the nose of this case casting. Coat that side of the pulley with a film of toothpaste, put it back on and tighten the bolt until it just starts to bind - then rotate the crank a bit and remove the pulley to see if there's evidence of contact with the case. If so, slap a stock pulley on to get back on the road and order an aftermarket "sand-seal" spacer which will hold the aluminum pulley out a little. Alternatively, you may only need to grind a little material off of the case until there's clearance (~.010" or so should be plenty). http://chircoestore.com/crankshaft-pull ... gines.html ...typically these are ~.090" thick, enough to disrupt the belt alignment unless you also fit a spacer behind the alternator pulley; some say you "must" use a longer bolt too, but .090" equates to only 1½ turns of the bolt so it's not that big a deal IMO.

If not, the problem's a more serious one. The pulley should have zero effect on the crankshaft endplay; measure the endplay without the pulley, it should be in the range of ~.004-.006". Be sure that you push/pull on the flywheel energetically enough to shift the thrust bearing in the case if the problem is that it's loose. If the endplay is excessive, the next step will be to remove the flywheel and front seal so you can observe/feel the thrust bearing for movement as you clunk the crankshaft back & forth. If it's sloppy in the case, there's no proper cure short of a complete teardown, machinework, and new bearings so you'll be driving the "leaker" for a little longer

[crvc]

Thanks for the replies. The short block is a 1971 or '72 type-1. I think originally it was in a vw van. It was a gift from my dad. He gave me two short blocks. One I rebuilt and have been using for a couple years. The other he couldn't remember much about. I noticed 0.008" end play on the flywheel. The book says that's good enough. I split the case just to see the innards. Then closed it back up after seeing all the bearings had been replaced. Dad must have rebuilt the block. He's a mechanic with over 50 years experience with VWs.

I had a lightened flywheel on the other engine. I bolted it to the '71 block and got the same endplay number. Then I put a Full-flow oil filter and pump--dished cam--onto the '71. I didn't hear it scraping the pulley but that might be the answer. If so then I'll go back to the stock oil pump. OR grind a little off the pump bolt heads of that's the problem. I doubt I could find a thicker washer locally and don't want to have to order one.

But thanks for the advice and ideas.

kevin

[Marc]

... I put a Full-flow oil filter and pump--dished cam--onto the '71. I didn't hear it scraping the pulley but that might be the answer...

Yeah, that could do it.
If you'll be messing with the oil pump hardware, be advised that the m8x1.25 threads in the case for the studs do NOT go all the way through (as it left the factory, anyway). This prevents inadvertently driving the stud too deep and having it come in contact with the cam gear; if you force it, or replace the studs with too-long bolts, you'll break a chunk of the casting off inside.
More often than not the studs/bolts clear the pulley OK but the sheetmetal "breast plate" gets pushed out to where it rubs against the pulley. Usually it can be reshaped enough to make room, sometimes it's necessary to trim part of it away - but leave it as intact as possible since any gaps will allow recirculation of hot air from below.

[crvc]

IT was the upper-two pump bolt heads pushing the sheet metal out a bit that was causing the drag. I used a hand grinder to thin the two. That didn't help enough. I found an old slinger and cut it down to act as a washer, bringing the pulley outwards by 1/32" or so. Still not enough that I couldn't hear scraping. The old pump had very short bolt heads that need a special tool. I must have the tool somewhere but haven't had time to search for it. Trying those bolts next, if I can get them off the old block.

I'm slowly putting the engine back together. I was horrified to find I may have put the distributer drive shaft in wrong; Looking down the #1TDC notch on the rim is at about 10 o'clock. When I added the cap the notch is even with the plug wire labeled #3. I'm hoping the vacuum can won't be in the way when adding the fuel pump.

This would be FUN if I didn't need the bug to get to work. Riding a fat-tire bike to work is getting to be a pain.

kevin

[Marc]

...When I added the cap the notch is even with the plug wire labeled #3...

There's an expedient/pragmatic "fix" at your disposal should you not want to risk the pitfalls inherent in removing the pinion on an assembled engine - the drive dog is held onto the bottom of the distributor shaft by a rollpin and can be reindexed by 180° to compensate for a "backwards" pinion gear. Simply spiral off the retaining spring, grip the dog by its teeth in a vise, drive the pin most of the way out until the shaft can be rotated half a turn, drive the pin back in and reinstall the spring. Presto, the distributor orientation is back to normal and nobody will know but you

[crvc]

"spiral off the retaining spring, grip the dog by its teeth in a vise,".

The terminology is over my head. If I could pull the shaft out an inch or so I'd be able to rotate to a more standard position, then push it back in. I wonder if this has been shown on You-tube.

kevin

[Marc]

You should probably post the numbers stamped into the housing of your distributor for positive identification (it may be from a Type III and they have the #1 mark at a different spot on the rim).
Early distributors (pre- c1971) and some centrifugal-advance replacement units have the #3 lobe on the cam for the points ground a couple of degrees CCW compared to the others, to help with the tendency of #3 to run hot on engines that have the oil cooler partially obstructing the airflow to the left side. On those distributors, it's important the orient the distributor so that #1 plug wire ends up above the mark on the rim. I don't think you're dealing with one of those, and if you aren't it really doesn't matter how the distributor ends up - if necessary, you can simply hop all the plug wires over by 90° or 180° as required by the orientation of the distributor that's needed to set the timing without the vacuum canister or the condenser bumping into the case or fuel pump...on the later distributors all four lobes are located 90° apart so there's no real need for the mark on the rim other than as a guideline - no harm is done by disregarding it if you must. There's a hole in the part of the housing that plugs into the case which ideally should be pointed the way the factory intended for optimum lubrication of the shaft, but in practice it isn't any big deal.

I don't know if this video will clarify things for you or just confuse you more. He touches on the difference between the Type I and Type III dizzys but never shows how one would extricate the drive pinion to relocate it. He mentions that the drive dog on the bottom of the shaft can be turned around but never demonstrates how (but honestly, that is not very hard to do - you just need to pry one end of the retaining spring out and work it around to unwind it, if you can manage to change the keys on a spiral key ring you should be able to handle this). But don't go changing anything until you're sure that you really need to - watch the video and see if it improves your understanding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaFoOzIKR4E

Oh, one more thing...in the video when he's positioning the crank so that the valves are in the correct place for TDC on #1, he rotates it with no distributor in the hole. DON'T EVER DO THAT! (at minimum, you need to keep pressure on the pinion with a finger to ensure that it doesn't "climb out" which can damage the brass gear on the crankshaft). At least 95% of the time you can get away with it, but if the pinion does rise up the consequences can be so dire that it's not wise to play the odds.

[crvc]

I'll check the video when I get time later today. This is the distributer:

PER-D186504 - PERTRONIX VACUUM ADVANCE (SVDA) DISTRIBUTOR - COMPLETE WITH IGNITOR IGNITION MODULE INSTALLED - ALL BEETLE STYLE ENGINES

I ordered it from CIP1 in 2011. I guess I was tired and didn't realize you were describing the tiny little pin at the bottom of the distributor. I dimly remember needing to tap that pin out to take old distributers apart. It scares me that I'll lose the pin in that dark and dirty quagmire that is my garage floor.

If the rotor is 180 degrees off I can live with that so long as the vacuum can isn't hitting anything. Otherwise I'll try to pry the drive gear out far enough to rotate and reset. I'll experiment with picking up the other block's drive using two long, skinny screwdrivers.

I did figure out the degree pulley is rubbing against the top of the oil filter/pump. I put in shallower allen-head bolts and am planning to grind a small amount off the pump so it's level with the bolts. IF I grind too much off....then I go back to the stock pump and do without the extra filtration.

Thanks again,

kevin

[Marc]

That distributor should have "even" timing so it's not imperative that it be installed in any particular orientation.
Removing the pinion on an assembled engine is something that I've done many times, but I recommend that it be avoided by the novice because of the potential for problems - again, the odds are good that you'll have no issues, but it only takes once to ruin your day.
My tool of choice is a hefty pair of circlip pliers which can grasp the pinion firmly to allow controlling it well - it must rotate CCW as it's pulled up. Picking at it with screwdrivers is a much less desirable technique. When that fails, the other method used is to whittle a dowel to the right diameter and pound it into the center bore to serve as a "handle" with which to remove it. If too loose it won't help, and if too tight you won't be able to remove it until you have the pinion completely out (you may need to break it and dig out the remains, not a good idea with the pinion in place).
A buildup of varnish or oxidation on the walls of the bore in the case may prevent the pinion from coming out. Most of the time it takes no more than a wipe with WD-40 (or perhaps carb cleaner) to remove it but sometimes you may need to resort to fine sandpaper.
The pinion must come up far enough to come completely clear of the brass gear before you can turn it, and sometimes will hang up partway out. If this happens, do not attempt to free it by turning the crank. Tap it back in (remember, it needs to turn CW on the way down) and try again.
Down in the bottom of the bore there are shim washers which hold the pinion at the correct installed height and prevent it from contacting the case. They should stay in place during the operation, but in the rare case when they lift up with the pinion there are a whole 'nuther set of potential pitfalls - which is why you don't want to do this unless there's no other option. But if you do go through with it, pull the pinion all the way out and peer down the hole to verify that they're concentric with the bore before you reinsert it. If not, fish them out with a magnet. Coat them with wheel bearing grease to make them "sticky", slide them up the shaft of a long screwdriver (or a dowel) and hold them there while you insert it into the bottom of the bore. Now drop the washers, look in and verify that they're all the way down before removing the tool. "Swirl" it around in the bottom of the hole first to center the washers. Note that there is a gap where the washers could be lost into the bowels of the crankcase should you lose control of them.
When you go to reinsert the pinion, hold it about 30° CCW of the target orientation and allow it to rotate clockwise as it goes down.

Again, if the correction needed is 180°, I strongly advise that you instead simply flip the drive dog on the distributor.

[crvc]

The vacuum can seems to be out of the way of the fuel pump. So I may leave it as is. I have several junk distributers so I'll practice tapping the pin out if I decide to "flip the drive dog on the distributor".

Another problem, I ordered a rebuild gasket kit, it got lost on the mail and I forgot about it. But it arrived yesterday. I've already put the oil pump in using permatex--a lot of permatex--without paper gaskets. Is thatgood enough or do I need to remove the pump, clean the goop off and use the gaskets?

Thanks,

kevin

[Marc]

I would at least pull the cover and clean off the goop. I don't know about your filter-pump, but a stock pump body has a groove milled in it that scavenges back to the inlet side; when that channel is plugged up with sealant, the sealant becomes the only thing preventing leakage.
The cover gasket also establishes a minimum endplay for the pump gears - never use the thick gasket, only the tissue-thin one, or you risk low oil pressure at hot-idle.
The cover gasket should be put on dry or with the lightest possible coating of sealant (as in, just enough to make it look shiny)...if the mating surfaces are flat, the scavenging groove is more effective at preventing leaks than any amount of goop.
Shouldn't be any need to pull the pump body to install the "bottom" gasket.
Most gasket sets have 4 pump gaskets - one each thick & thin for both 8mm and 6mm studs. The 6mm gaskets will fit on an 8mm case if you carefully nip out the outboard corners of the holes, so hang onto them in case you ever need "extras".

[crvc]

Thanks, I got the engine in yesterday. The distributor vacuum can hits the fuel pump so I did as you suggested, I tapped the pin out and flipped the bottom 180 degrees. Like I worried about, when tapping the pin it fell out onto the floor. I couldn't find it but the old distributor that I'd practiced on was still on the bench so I used that pin. It started, sounds normal except for the pulley scraping the tin. Got too dark to continue so I'm still riding the bike to work. Hopefully today I can time it and do something about the scraping tin.

I dimly recall timing at idle with the vacuum tube removed is 5 degrees BTDC?

kevin

[Marc]

...Like I worried about, when tapping the pin it fell out onto the floor....
I dimly recall timing at idle with the vacuum tube removed is 5 degrees BTDC?

In future, consider doing this sort of work over (or in) a large cardboard box - especially worthwhile when there are any springs involved

For an "SVDA" (the stock`74 49-state 4-speed distributor and its clones) the timing should be set at 7.5° BTDC at idle (~875 RPM). It should make no difference whether the vacuum hose is connected or not (if the timing changes when the hose is connected at idle, something's not right). Setting it "statically" - engine off, using a test light - should theoretically yield the same result.
SVDAs have a generous amount of total advance. The centrifugal component, which isn't all in until 3500-3800 RPM, is 20 to 25°; the vacuum component can add another 8 to 12° at high RPM and light load. Therefore, 7.5° initial should result in a maximum of 40 ±4.5° when you buzz the revs up in the driveway. In my experience, the majority will hit ~43°.