3.5 quart sump

[56rag1914cc]

Hello all,

I have a 3.5 quart sump on my engine and want to take it off. Is it just a matter of unscrewing the bolts on the oil drain plate? Thanks!

[sideshow]

How is your pickup extension held on? Not uncommon that it has been welded, and sometimes only hose clamped.

[56rag1914cc]

That i am not sure of. Only way to find out is take it off?

[Marc]

You should be able to tell by peering up in there with the sump plate off. If the extension is welded/brazed on, the expedient thing to do would be to find a smaller sump that's the same depth (or maybe just one of those steel sump "bumps" - they're a steel cylinder which could be cut and lengthened or shortened as required to match up with the pickup tube length).
With the exception of the late Gene Berg sumps that use special nuts, aluminum deep sumps all need longer studs installed in the case. If they're threaded sufficiently you wouldn't necessarily have to change them to run a stock plate or sump bump, you just wouldn't be able to run acorn nuts so there might be some oil weepage. If you change the studs over to stock ones, be aware that one of them also serves as the hold-down point for the pickup tube - it has a flatwasher and shakeproof nut up inside that complicates removing/installing it with the case mated...it can be done, but you'll need to grind/bend up a 10mm box wrench to get it in there. The pragmatic approach would be to change just the other five so you can run acorn nuts on them, and leave that one alone with a conventional nut - I wouldn't recommend that you try to simply cut it down.

[56rag1914cc]

Thanks Marc. Ill tackle this weekend. Just doing a recon first,

[56rag1914cc]

Marc,

Just looking for your opinion.

I removed my 3.5 sump, very easily i might add. (Thank you!)

What do you think the advantages of having the sump are? I have a 1914cc with dual 40 Webers and had the sump put on when i had the engine built. I have since lowered my car in the rear and was not comfortable with the sump being so close to the ground. i guess my question is what benefits do you think I lost removing the sump?

[Marc]

The added capacity (and lower pickup point) helps in preventing oil starvation when cornering or accelerating/decelerating hard. With the stock <3 quarts on board, most of it's in circulation "upstairs"...especially when the oil is cold/thick and taking a while to return to the pickup. In my experience a deep sump of some kind should be considered mandatory on any engine with more than stock carburetion, especially if it's 1775cc or larger - even if you don't do any hard cornering, you're probably capable of accelerating quickly enough to "stack" the oil against the back of the sump, away from the pickup.
At the moment I only have a stock 1600DP w/dual 34ICTs in my daily driver - not quite enough acceleration potential there to warrant a deep sump but since the suspension's been upgraded and I enjoy charging corners I'm still at risk of oil starvation during spirited maneuvers. In my case, I found a shallow "suction kit" which doesn't affect ground clearance to be sufficient most of the time - although I still have to exercise some restraint on long sweepers to keep the warning light out...especially if the level's down by ½ a quart or so.

This is the type that I'm using:
http://www.jbugs.com/product/3058.html? ... kets-sumps

There are also larger ~½qt "mini sumps" available that DO hang down some (although not quite as much as your 3½qt probably did)...you still need to be conscious of the ground clearance, but it's easier to miss the high spots in the road with this smaller target.
http://www.jbugs.com/product/16-9520.ht ... kets-sumps

[mountainkowboy]

Does anyone make a good higher capacity sump? I've heard the newer Empi ones are crap and the old ones are pricey, but I would like to add a small 1.5 quart or better sump to the Ghia.

[56rag1914cc]

The added capacity (and lower pickup point) helps in preventing oil starvation when cornering or accelerating/decelerating hard. With the stock <3 quarts on board, most of it's in circulation "upstairs"...especially when the oil is cold/thick and taking a while to return to the pickup. In my experience a deep sump of some kind should be considered mandatory on any engine with more than stock carburetion, especially if it's 1775cc or larger - even if you don't do any hard cornering, you're probably capable of accelerating quickly enough to "stack" the oil against the back of the sump, away from the pickup.
At the moment I only have a stock 1600DP w/dual 34ICTs in my daily driver - not quite enough acceleration potential there to warrant a deep sump but since the suspension's been upgraded and I enjoy charging corners I'm still at risk of oil starvation during spirited maneuvers. In my case, I found a shallow "suction kit" which doesn't affect ground clearance to be sufficient most of the time - although I still have to exercise some restraint on long sweepers to keep the warning light out...especially if the level's down by ½ a quart or so.

This is the type that I'm using:
http://www.jbugs.com/product/3058.html? ... kets-sumps

There are also larger ~½qt "mini sumps" available that DO hang down some (although not quite as much as your 3½qt probably did)...you still need to be conscious of the ground clearance, but it's easier to miss the high spots in the road with this smaller target.
http://www.jbugs.com/product/16-9520.ht ... kets-sumps

Nice, the suction kit looks like it will fit my needs!

[Marc]

Does anyone make a good higher capacity sump? I've heard the newer Empi ones are crap and the old ones are pricey, but I would like to add a small 1.5 quart or better sump to the Ghia.

I bought a cheap Chinese one to check it out. It looked like a pretty good deal until I went to drill/tap it for a temp sender and discovered that the alloy was some nasty conglomeration of melted beer cans and other scrap aluminum. Still, it did work - but I've been very cautious about using it to support the weight of that engine when removing/installing (I use a small sheet of plywood to spread the load).
The current Gene Berg sumps are designed with counterbored holes (which makes them extremely thin) that accept special "longer nuts" so you don't have to install longer studs to mount them. A nice idea I guess, but I'd just as soon do it the old-school hard way.
CBPerformance's sumps use an oversize plate, which makes it easier to reach inside to mount it...but you'll need to stock up on their proprietary larger gaskets if you want to remove it for cleaning when changing oil. I recommend against the use of any suction-side filtration beyond the stock strainer, so the model which features that is to be avoided IMO.
Bugpack's 3042-10 has scallops machined out of the plate mounting surface. They make it easier to access the nuts to mount it to the case, but the downside is that they weaken it, making it more susceptible to damage if you ever smack bottom - and there's less material available should the stud holes ever need to be relocated. Probably not a big deal for the average street machine, but back when I ran wet-sump motors in my circletrack cars I had to salvage damaged sumps quite often, and this style almost always took heliarcing and milling to make serviceable again. For my money, the SCAT 50060 is the better choice - harder to install, but worth it IMO. Snap-On makes a dandy little ¼"-drive 10mm wobble-socket that makes it fairly easy to get to the mounting nuts without the scallops.

[mountainkowboy]

Thanks Marc.....as always a wealth of information....SCAT it is.

[Marc]

...Nice, the suction kit looks like it will fit my needs!

Note that the pickup "foot" seals to the stock pipe with a couple of internal O-rings - the pipe has to be quite round where they ride to prevent sucking air, and they're easily damaged upon installation if the end of the pipe is at all jagged. Find a socket that just fits inside and reshape it with pliers if needed, sand it smooth on the outside, and put some grease on the O-rings before you wriggle the foot into place. Once it's on, there should be no need to remove it again, just check it for trash when you change the oil. The screen's pretty coarse so these are best used in conjunction with a full-flow filter system; you may also want to epoxy a strong magnet to the sump plate to catch any ferrous particles too small to be stopped by the screen (a small one on the inside, or a big one on the outside - either works).