bench test

[lil_azza]

anyone tell me how and what is the simplest way to wire and engine to run not in the car?
i have a gearbox and starter, and a 1200 a 1300 and a 1500 engine id like to get running good cheers

[FJCamper]

Hi lil_azza,

Set the engine on a wooden pallet with a block of wood nailed to the pallet on each side of the case.

Bolt the transmission to it. Make sure it is in neutral! The best method is to have an empty transaxle case with a starter bolted to it.

You now need a battery and a small gas can. Set the gas can in a safe place close to the engine and run a length of fuel line from the gas can to the fuel pump inlet. Keep the line short, and if possible, about level with the fuel pump.

Wire a ground strap from the battery negative to the transaxle case. Wire the battery positive cable to the starter.

Get yourself a couple of lengths of wire with alligator clips on the ends. Clip one jumper to the positive side of the ignition coil from the positive battery termnal. Your improvised switch is now "on."

Now, clip the second jumper to the battery positive, and when you touch the starter positive spade terminal, the starter will spin.

You can do this alone, but it's best to have a helper. As the starter cranks the engine over, you move the carburetor throttle lever up and down until the engine starts.

As soon as the engine starts, remove the jumper clip off the starter.

To kill the running engine, remove the jumper off the ignition coil positive.

In that you are sucking gas out of a fuel can, bottle, (whatever) and you accidently pull the fuel line out of the can or knock the can over -- it happens -- be ready with a fire extinguisher.

You can get fancy and make some proper wires with push-on termnals, etc. if you like. We have a steel tube frame stand with a hollow transaxle bolted to it, with its own battery, electric fuel pump, gas can, and instrument panel since we run our race engines for testing.

FJC

[Marc]

You'll need to count the teeth on the flywheels - 130-tooth `wheels are slightly larger in diameter than 109-tooth and must use a 12V starter (their pinion gear has a smaller diameter). Conversely, you should use only a 6V starter on a 109-tooth 'wheel, although you might get away with the 12V - there won't be much tooth engagement and the teeth will mesh oddly so it sounds like heck but it usually works well enough for this purpose.
12V starters also have a smaller-diameter shaft, so it's not a simple matter to interchange in the same trans case - you have to use the appropriate bushing too, and their O.D.s are also different.

The "SR17" 12V starter that came in AutoStick Beetles, automatic Type IIIs and some baywindow buses is self-supporting and doesn't need a bushing, so you can use a 6V trans/bushing/starter setup for 109-tooth engines and only need to pop in an SR17 starter for 130-tooth engines.

A 6V starter will survive use on 12V, just don't crank for extended periods to avoid overheating it.

[lil_azza]

there all 12v engines cheers guys

[Phil69]

It is possible to start standard 1200 engines by hand.
I don't recommend you try it as you can easily loose fingers.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

It is possible to start standard 1200 engines by hand.
I don't recommend you try it as you can easily loose fingers.

Very much so!!! If not done right it was very easy to break an wrist or arm or dislocate them while trying to hand crank on in the old days of hand crank engines. Having the throttle and advance properly set was part of the procedure too. Your grip on the crank was also important ('cha gotta keep your thumb out of the way) and you had to worry about the engine trying to catch and run backwards. If I remember there was a run-out on the vibration dampener to help kick the hand crank out so it didn't rotate with the engine but I also have heard that is wasn't a guarantee either. I tried it once on my '37 Chev Coupe when I found the crank in the trunk.

Antique heavy flywheel engines such as hit and miss engines are now being restored and often shown at specialty/hobby shows and county fairs. Just for giggles: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vid ... 33D0FBFA36 and even a better video: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vid ... 33D0FBFA36 [after it gets running he shows more detail]. As I remember, the last I hit and miss came out/built around 1940. If you listen you can hear the engine rotate any where up to 8 or 10 times between engine firing. As the load increases the engine fires more often.

[Marc]

Back in my penniless-hippie days I went for several months with no battery in my `56. I'd rigged in an adjustable voltage regulator from a `53 Studebaker so the generator cut-in speed was very low, which allowed me to bump-start it at just a few MPH. I had to pick my parking spaces ve-r-r-r-y carefully, and sure as sh*t now and then I'd come back to it to find someone had me blocked in. I could "rope-start" it by wrapping a length of old seatbelt that'd I'd sliced in half lengthwise around the wide flange on the 6V generator pulley (after taking out a shim or two to keep the belt from slipping), but in order to achieve a high enough RPM to get the generator working I had to remove one spark plug from each side and fire it up on two, then screw the plugs back in on a running engine -tons o' fun
This little jewel, from an old 30HP motor, simplified my life somewhat - that car is long gone, but I've kept the bolt. With this (and a hole in the apron) I could use a handcrank instead of messing 'round with that seatbelt ...I suppose it's worth about $50 these days, but it's got more sentimental value than that to me...Chris can sell it when I'm gone.



(After the second time screwing around putting plugs back in with the engine running, I found a 6V lantern battery to carry as an emergency ignition-power source until I could afford a new 19L)

[Phil69]

I used to try and bump start my Audi 80 the battery had a damaged cell. It used to have just enough power to prime the injection system and then it would give up.
I once had to bump it in reverse I slipped over and the car rolled into a steel railing outside the local park. It was 6am in the morning luckily no one was around.
I brought a battery the next day.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Phil, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying but, since as far as I know, this is the first time the "bumping an engine" subject has come up so I thought it was a good time to say something as there are always people reading stuff and not always understanding.

Being a really old fart and having gone through the 'not having any money' bit like most everyone does as kids and young adults or things happen at the most inopportune time I have a lot of bump/compression starting of engines myself. I grew up in hilly country so you always parked facing down on a hill with the tires turned as the law says you are supposed to . I also witnessed a lot of compression starting being done with good and not so good results (cheap entertainment for me but not so cheap for the other guy).

One thing I was taught by my older peers/adults (this was back in the later '50s) was not to "bump start" a car in first, compound low or reverse (reverse was a very big no-no especially if the clutch was not dis-engaged at the right time for many reasons). Have I been in a car when it was done in reverse: yes and the results were either good or expensive. Reverse in a ACVW transaxle is tenuous at best and other cars aren't much stronger in reverse either. Bump starting is very hard on the running gear and since the gearing in reverse/first/compound low is so low the engine may not turn fast enough to start or, as I have seen, bump back and catch causing it to run backwards. This can happen when the clutch is disengaged at the bump but not at the right time (timing often is very important in this). Compression starting has always been considered really not a safe thing to do as some people didn't understand all of it and have gotten themselves (and others) in trouble.

At the time I was learning cars: 4-speeds were just coming to American cars and were very expensive and they were easily damaged. Second in most 3-speed cars and 2nd/3rd in 4-speeds... due to gearing. I saw some kids trying to start a car in compression not too long ago and I was cringing when I saw it being done but then I remembered back to some of the things we did as kids to start cars and that made my colon pucker even more (I think I made some diamonds that day).

As a funny side note: quite a few years ago someone I knew slightly was having trouble starting his lawn mower so I said (my sense of humor is not always understood): "why don't you try starting it on compression" which then I had to explain what that was. I turned around and started to walk away: the next scene was really funny as he was running down the street pushing his lawn mower with me running after him giggling trying to yell to him "hold it, hold it". I started to tell someone trying to start a "weed eater"/string trimmer the same thing but stopped when I started giggling.

No offence meant.

Lee

[aussiebug]

I learned to drive in 1967 in my Dad's 1960 bug. 6volt of course. One day a cell in the battery died, resulting in only 4 volts or so - not enough to crank it. So I just learned to push the car on level ground with the driver's door open, jump in, push the clutch pedal in, put it into 2nd (never 1st) and let the clutch up briefly. Started every time and I drove it like that for days until I could get a new battery for it.

Over 40 years later I can do the same with my 1970 bug too. Low compression means it doesn't take much energy to spin the engine over, and it only needs one or two firing strokes to start it, so a flat battery was never a problem, unless it was facing up hill (never tried starting it in reverse for the reasons stated above). But most of the time now I just carry a battery pack - so much easier than pushing.

Getting off topic a bit...

Some year ago I had occasion to to carry three Ford model Ts on my truck (car carrier business). I already knew about the right way to hold a crank handle - thumb on the same side as your fingers so it wont get broken if the handle kicks out of your hand, and the manual advance lever made it easy to set at about 2 degrees advance, a touch of throttle and the engine would usually start with just one or two cranks. A touch more advance and throttle and it would be idling well. Funny thing though - having only driven one once in my life before, I got on to the Model T Club of America web site to check out the pedal operations before I went to pick up the three Ts. When I got to the place, the owner was jumping around from foot to foot looking worried..."you can drive these can't you?" "Sure" I said, "but it's been a while - just check me out on the controls OK? Push the left pedal for Low gear, centre pedal is Reverse, right pedal is Brake, then on the handle you pull back for Park, push to centre for Neutral and forwards for Second gear (the planetary gearbox has only two forward gears). Hand controls on the wheel are spark advance and throttle - I forget which is which...". The guy sighed and smiled - "thank god they sent someone who can drive them". I didn't tell him my experience was limited to a single 5 minute drive years previously All went well and they were loaded and moved safely. Interesting cars to drive - your hands and feet do a dance changing gears and accelerating, adjusting spark advance, throttle and operating the gear change all at once. Steering is like a go-cart - half turn from lock to lock. Brakes are just "gentle retarding devices".

Did you know that Henry Ford helped himself the idea for the steel they were made from? He looked at a French Voisin car which looked spindly compared to the heavy mild steel frames then in use and he spoke to the guy with the car. He told Henry that the steel was made with Vanadium, so Henry visited the factory in France, saw what they were doing, and built himself a steel plant to make the Vanadium steel which allowed the cars to be much lighter and stronger. I believe he also had the contract-built engines delivered in special oversized wooden crates. The crates were pulled apart and used for the floor boards of the car - the ultimate in recycling, and of course Henry did not have to pay for the floor boards. He later also refused to pay for the concept of "squish" (turbulent) combustion chambers, invented by Sir Harry Ricardo* in Britain in the early 1920s. These new cylinder head designs saved the London Bus company 100,000 pounds in fuel costs in 1925, so it was a great step forward in combustion. Sir Harry did not have the clout to fight Henry in the USA, but eventually ALL Ford cars sold in the UK and Europe had to pay Ricardo Engineering a royalty. Henry didn't like to pay for any idea he could purloin.
* Sir Harry Ricardo "Engines and Enterprise", "The high speed internal combustion engine" and other publications.

[Piledriver]

I have push started my car more often that I can count.

The old diesel rabbit in upstate NY was a favorite challenge for the Point Rock Bobsled team at -10F.
My son and I starting the diesel Rabbit with gimpy glow plugs, fortunately we lived on top of a decent hill.
We got pretty good at it... But pushinnng it bbbback up for a second try sucked.

I even had to flatfoot my squareback in the Burger King drive through last year when a starter bit the dust.
If it's tuned right, and have plenty of practice, even a fat 50 year old guy in shorts and flip flops doin the Fred Flintstone for a few seconds can drive away smoothly. (my Megasquirt may have paid for itself right there)

Practice makes perfect...
Second gear is your friend, and done right it hurts nothing.
NEVER use a low gear like first or reverse, higher gears provide you with more leverage, second or even third work with a well tuned engine, it will fire off at a reasonable walking speed, push the clutch once it starts.

Clutchless driving (broken cable) is a far more difficult to explain procedure, and is harder on the equipment, esp the starter, but possible in a pinch (to get home for tools and a cable).

[Ol'fogasaurus]

'Pile wrote - "... Clutchless driving (broken cable) is a far more difficult to explain procedure, and is harder on the equipment, esp the starter, but possible in a pinch (to get home for tools and a cable)."

I started out driving Chevrolets (25 or 26 of 'em... I forget just how many now) and their mickey mouse/POS clutch linkage that bends, or falls-off (ball and socket) when the motor and transmission mounts get old/soft (remember to stop and pick it up or maybe you will find someone else's linkage near by laying in the road) and shift linkage that will work OK until you get it off the car lot then wear out by the end of the block; so because of that I learned how to drive w/o using a clutch. .

As 'Pile said, you have to start with a dead engine and the tranny in gear: then, using the starter and hopefully good battery, you have to start the car in gear using the starter to move the car until the engine catches. You also have to learn gas pedal control; e.g., finesse for gear changes and shifting to reduce the pressure on the trans. If you have to stop the car you have to kill the engine and that requires the same trick as shifting to get the car out of gear. Remember: to paraphrase 'Pile: this should be considered an emergency thing and actually doing it is going to be hard on things until you get good at it and the police don't like you to do it as they feel that you don't have complete control of your car... which is probably true.

It is really simple and once you figure it out you can travel through town w/o too many problems (unless you are traveling through Renton WA which is the unsynchronized stoplight capital of the world). There are two things to learn: mostly you have to match RPMs between the engine and transmission and also lift a bit on the loud pedal (the finesse I mentioned before) to take pressure off the internals in the transmission (this is also required when stopping the car). A light touch on the gas pedal to change RPMs but not too much or you have to wait for the engine to slow down again. As I said, this is a learned foot/brain thing that can, with practice, can go from car to car.

Going down gears; e.g., down shifting: it is raising the RPM to match the internals of the trans so when you get it right the trans almost shifts itself; e.g., it will slide into the gear w/o too much shifter pressure (when you get it right you will say Oh, yeah, that is what he was talking about). Going up gears you have to match RPMs also but it is a bit more difficult especially if you are short shifting (next too impossible if you are one of those guys who is in 4th by the time you cross the intersection or the crosswalk). Sometimes it will seem impossible or impossibly long before the two match RPMs. Again, this is a learned thing and you probably won't get it right at first.

The other necessary skill is double clutching: a trick us'n old farts learned with the old transmissions that straight cut gears and/or no syncros or the syncros and sliding gear trannies, you know, in the good 'ol days. Shifting w/o a clutch is relatively hard to do but it is the timing bit that, when learned, will allow you to shift into neutral when the gear box and engine RPMS match; then some more PRMs and you can feel via the shift linkage as the engine's RPM match the gears/syncros in the trans the gears slide into place. Once you learn both of these, especially the finessing of the gas pedal part then the rest comes easier. That and a lot of practice.

One thing I never understood is the double clutching going up through the gears. Double clutching is supposed to be less hard on things but I don't know why they think the shock is going to be less. In the chase scene in "Bullet" when they get out of town you can hear the "whappa-whappa" at each gear change as he McQueen chases after the Mopar. Double clutching going up was very popular for a while but to me it defeats the whole idea and had to be hard on trans internals. Oh well...

By-the-way, I was never here and never said any of this! I offer no warrantee or guarantee nor it is not my fault. As I said, you can do damage if you try this and are not careful and if you get a ticket I do not accept responsibility for what was never said.

Lee

There was the person who sent ten puns to friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. No pun in ten did.