DIY disc brake conversion

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jaybug
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

Maybe this has been done before (I'd be amazed if it hasn't) but I didn't find anything related on-line so I figured I'd
post it up here.
I've bought original German discs;

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and salvaged some callipers from a modern opel that hasn't got vented discs so the pads don't fall out once they get near shot, they'll be stripped and cleaned/painted later.

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I then pulled the old drums and brakes

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swapped over the bearings with a little help in the kitchen, I'll replace them with new ones once I am done

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This is as far as I got tonight.

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I'll fab the brackets to carry the callipers next but I need some help understanding the master cylinder,
on researching I found something about a residual valve that is not good for brake pads?
If some one could simplify what I need to do about this? That would be great.

Also, would any one know if the cylinders in the front drums are a little bigger than the rears?
If so I was thinking of changing them over, if its possible, to improve the rear braking also.
Although if the front works out I'll probably do the same in the back.

PLEASE if you have anything to add, even little concerns, do so.
Ol'fogasaurus
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Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Due to outgassing I would be reticent to do that in the oven with food. I also would be reticent to do that in the family oven even w/o food just in case of residual outgassing otherwise, good job.
jaybug
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

I don't know much about reticent or out gassing for that matter but the pie was tasty! :P
You might want to liken me to "Tom" of Gas Monkey fame in my unconventional ways and devilmaycare approach to
mechanics :oops:
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

:lol: :roll: :wink:

Some outgassing is thuubt (a noise similar to the raspberry sound but not so wet meaning no big deal) but some outgassing can be not so funny. I was just saying... be careful.

Lee
Bruce2
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Bruce2 »

Ignore what you learned about residual check valves. Some MCs installed 45 years ago had them, but today nobody uses them and everyone's disc brake setups work fine.
Can you show more pics of the caliper you picked?
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

The residual pressure valve is designed to hold the brake shoe/pads close to the drum/rotor so there isn't any bleed back into the master cylinder and the brake system remains charged. If bleed back does happen then you often will have to pump the brakes to get fluid back up to the wheel cylinder(s)/calipers. The rule of thumb for residual pressure valves is 2#s for disc and 10# for drum brakes. If the residual valve is bad or installed incorrectly then it is possible to have the shoes/pads ride against the rotor/drum.

As Bruce 2 alluded to, most every manufacturer now days uses swing pedals; they mount the MC, usually on the firewall, so that it sits above the slave cylinders/calipers making the necessity for residual pressure valves usually necessary. Some manufacturers, until not too long ago, also had the distribution block off the MC set up with a valve in it as a just in case backup and I think that some may have had a valve in the MC but I am going on my memory on the MCs.

In a vehicle that comes with a floor mounted pedal assembly, such as pre-mid 50's American cars; e.g., and a lot of cars from around the world including most of the older ACVW bugs cars, then it is possible that residual pressure valves could be a wanted necessity.

If you have a car that:

1) has not been lowered to where the MC sits below the calipers,

2) has a perfectly tight system front to back (for instance) with no bleed back problems in the hard of soft brake line joins or loose tolerances the MC,

then you should be OK without the need for any residual pressure valves but remember, as the system wears and the parts get older then the necessity to have them may arise. It is your call on this.

It took my buggy many years to develop the need for a residual pressure valve but it does need one now.

Lee
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Marc
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Marc »

jaybug wrote:...Also, would any one know if the cylinders in the front drums are a little bigger than the rears?
If so I was thinking of changing them over, if its possible, to improve the rear braking also.
Although if the front works out I'll probably do the same in the back...
Yes, they're substantially larger - yet the offset of the `68-up rear wheel cylinder is the same as that of the front W/C, so they bolt right up and fit just fine. I recommend that you do that to bring the front-to-rear balance back into the normal realm; upgrading the rear linings to semi-metallics is also a good move.
It's a bit more involved converting the rears to disc, since there are no stock ACVW parts that can be used to accomplish it (914 Porsche is as close as it gets) so most folks forego the DIY route and buy an aftermarket setup. The cheap ones have no parking/emergency brake (which means they aren't street-legal) and you've got to look out for proprietary components which you may not be able to find replacements for in the future. Personally I like to use Porsche 924T/944 rears since they're easy to find. You have to make up your own hydraulic pipes and install aftermarket "swans" and extension tubes to couple the Bug parking brake cables to the Porsche brakes, but that's almost trivial - the bigger issue is that they're 5x130 (and not really redrillable) so you have to run Porsche rims with them.
Another solution, IMO as good as rear discs (except for the fact that you'll still need to adjust them now & then) is to use Type III rear brakes - they bolt right on, using the stock Bug plumbing and cables. Type III and IV rears are the same other than the center hubs of the drums; they'll cause a slight increase in track width (like, ~¼") which is seldom a problem unless you have very tight sidewall-to-fender clearance.
VW's answer to the RPV question was to use "restriction drillings" in the M/C - they don't actually hold any residual pressure, but they do impede the rate at which fluid can suck back into the M/C on the pedal upstroke and that's usually enough to prevent air from being drawn in at the wheels cylinders/calipers. Since the `70s, the 113 611 015BD M/C has been the only replacement part available for Beetles/Ghias/Things, and it seems to work just fine in most drum, disc/drum, and even disc/disc installations...there is a larger-bore (non-stock) M/C available if you find that it's needed, but shouldn't be required if the calipers chosen aren't too large.
I'm not crazy about the idea of DIY caliper brackets, but if you're confident that you can handle making their attachment sufficiently robust go for it. Karmann-Ghia spindles that already have stout integral "wings" for caliper attachment are fairly easy to come by, though, so IMO they'd be a better way to go.
I see that you've got the late, hub-centric rotors - those don't fit on most wheels which were made for the earlier "bolt-centric" drums/discs so you'd better confirm that your wheels will bolt on before you go much further.
jaybug
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

I'm going to take away that I don't need to concern myself with residual valves then.
If I have an issue with the calliper piston size, I figure I'll just have to modify the MC from the donor car as it has drums
in the rear. Also as I have only recently bought my bug and never really driven it I don't know how bad the original braking system
was! I'm going to put a subaru EJ20 non turbo in it to start with so I'll have a vacuum line to run if I was to run the servo along with the
donor system.
Any one know if the level of vacuum is important? being that the brake servo and the engine would be from two different cars.

James.
jaybug
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

Some more pics of the calliper as requested I wasn't sure what you wanted to see but I tried to show the piston is
about 40mm across.

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Just let me know if your not seeing what you want to see.
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Marc
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Marc »

Stock 'Ghia and Type III calipers have pistons which are 40-42mm diameter, although they're non-floating, dual-piston affairs (as it happens, a single-40 floater exerts the exact same clamping force at the same line pressure as a double-40 fixed - that seems to defy logic, but trust me).
M/C is ¾" (19.05mm), stock rear wheel cylinders are 17.46mm...but the front wheel cylinders are 22.2mm, so using them at the rear increases the piston surface by ~60%.
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Marc
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Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by Marc »

jaybug wrote:...Any one know if the level of vacuum is important? being that the brake servo and the engine would be from two different cars...
It's very important - but most engines with mild camshaft timing will pull more than enough. There are Band-Aids which can be applied, like reserve tanks and auxiliary vacuum pumps (mechanical or electric) but nothing like that should be necessary with your intended powerplant. A bigger concern would be the lack of physical space available for a M/C with servo can - it'd take some serious fabrication to convert to a high-mounted M/C with suspended pedal, but I seriously doubt that you'll ever need power-assisted brakes on a car as light as a Beetle.
jaybug
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

Marc wrote:Stock 'Ghia and Type III calipers have pistons which are 40-42mm diameter, although they're non-floating, dual-piston affairs (as it happens, a single-40 floater exerts the exact same clamping force at the same line pressure as a double-40 fixed - that seems to defy logic, but trust me).
M/C is ¾" (19.05mm), stock rear wheel cylinders are 17.46mm...but the front wheel cylinders are 22.2mm, so using them at the rear increases the piston surface by ~60%.

So it all seems to come together perfectly and as far as I can tell these pads have a larger contact area
Thanks Marc, I'll just crack on then. I should be more or less done next wkend, at which point I'll post more pics.

On another note, I've seen a topic on here detailing a DIY wiring loom for a 1990-94 EJ22,
any chance some one on here can modify it for me? I have a 98 EJ20 N/A.
I'm hoping to start into that in the new year.

Thanks, Jay.
jaybug
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

Marc, I had to look up hub-centric/ lug-centric but yeh I test fitted and there good. Well spotted though!

Jay.
jaybug
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by jaybug »

I got back at it again last night but only for an hour so just a few photos

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I should have more pics tomorrow. It looks slow but im making two of everything you see!
tonyorlo
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:09 pm

Re: DIY disc brake conversion

Post by tonyorlo »

Any updates on this?
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