Performance Street Tires for a Buggy

[GS guy]

I know a few of you guys have autocrossed your V-dubs and fiberglass buggies and my question is - is it worth it to run high performance "summer" tires on a lightweight VW or buggy? Not being limited by sizes (17" rear, 16" front wheels), and being that my Deserter will be fairly limited use - Sunny day driver, "maybe" some just-for-fun autocrossing(?), but mostly just street cruising the back roads: should I consider a performance street tire vs. something more generic? 300, or even a 200 or 100 UTQG rated tire? I love the "look" and asymmetrical tread patterns on some of the more radical performance tires, and other than limited wet weather traction (which I'll be avoiding anyway with no top), and keeping in mind that I'll likely take me years to put on 10K miles (don't need something that'll last 50k miles), plus the general lighter weight of the vehicle - can an ultra high performance tire work on a buggy? Other than cost - what other drawbacks should I be aware of? Harshness? Noise? Limited shelf life? Rock throwing?
Wide open to opinions and experience!
Jeff

[ONEBADBUG]

You can't drive fast enough (safely) on the street to need race tires. If you start going to the local autocross, which you should!, then go for it.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

You can't drive fast enough (safely) on the street to need race tires. If you start going to the local autocross, which you should!, then go for it.

I more or less agree but I would recommend two sets of tires: one set for daily use and one set for play. Remember, like the full body race, autocross cars or like OBB's pix of his car you have a big weight reduction change when going to a glass bodied bug pan (plus other things that can come into play). Add to that is yours full length or has it been shortened and have other things been added or changed.

Lee

[GS guy]

I guess I got spoiled from the Acura RSX T-S I had with the OEM Michelin Pilot Sport tires. Those tire stuck like glue to the road! Worn out at 40K and replaced them with Bridgestone Potenzas (all season), these seemed to stick nearly as well, but they flat-spotted every night when it was cold! Annoying!!
I know these were "street" tires (not race), but was thinking I'd like to have that phenomenal grip in my buggy, even going to an ultra performance summer tire. Being mid-engine, I really want to optimize the handling and grip in the corners. It'll definitely be a balance of cost, reviews and finding matching tires in the sizes I'm running.
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"... Being mid-engine, I really want to optimize the handling and grip in the corners."

You are running a mid-engine glass buggy, If so what kind (pix please)? I haven't heard of mid-engine in a glass buggy being done for years. I knew of a couple of rails being built that way but that pretty much stopped being done years ago. The balance factor problem you will have is correct as will be tire choice (this I would suspect as with bias-ply tires it was. Mostly because of the sidewalls). I am not as up on Radial tires as much as I would be with bias-ply tires but side wall strength might still have a lot to do with your desired handling.

Very cool! Looking forward to pix and progress.

Lee

[GS guy]

This is an "extreme-ly" long term project Ol'fog, so don't expect lots of progress in the near-term. It's the ol' life took precedence situation, house projects, kids, etc - the usual delays in any car build that's not on TV! I am finally getting my workshop back together after major waterproofing work - so at least that's a Big step in the right direction towards getting back on the buggy build!
I have some old posts in the Conversion Perversion forum but I'll try to put up a couple of pics here as an overview. Original Deserter GS, mid-engine chassis, switch to Subaru power, custom coil-over independent suspension, yadda, yadda. Very much still in progress.

Here's the chassis - about the most it has ever been together since I blew it back apart (a couple years ago) for final welding and then painting:

2012-4-14 - 08.JPG

And an early body mock-up:

DSCN2339.JPG

Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Wow, very advanced looking. At first I thought the rear hoop had shocks on it but the spherical rod ends are and interesting feature. So is the 4-bar and the IFS! Not your conventional VW pan for sure.

I don't think that stock VW sized tires and rims will work especially with the 5-lug discs.

Have you checked the local autocross rules; mostly on the hoop vs. a cage? Some will allow an open car to have a hoop, some will not. I think it has a lot to do with their insurance for the event. I haven't been around auto crossing since the early 80s; I never participated but some of the members of the club I belonged to at the time did so I heard some about how things were being done.

Gonna enjoy watching this build come to fruition.

Lee

[Jadewombat]

What do you think the end weight will be? 205s slicks on 16s were way too much on my 1500lb. autocross bug. It was way too much tire and rim, but I didn't have high hp either. Definitely slowed me down a bit.

[Steve Arndt]

Z rated tires are soft so will offer more traction. You want to keep some decent sidewall height. Low profile doesn't work well with our suspension.

I run 205-50R17 front and 215/55R17 rear on my bug. Both z rated soft compound.

[GS guy]

The coil-overs are (single) adjustable, so I'm "hoping" they'll go soft enough to give a decent ride while still working good in the corners. Front and rear adjustable sway bars too, so I've got lots of "adjustables"to play with during set-up. Spring rates were the best I could come up with given the calculators available and estimated weights and shock geometry. I'm thinking the car should come in around 1500lbs? Hopefully a bit lighter, but it does have the whole water cooling system, turbo/intercooler, heater system, semi-nice interior - all in pieces and boxes currently!
My front tires are 205/50's, although I may go with 45 series tires if I re-tire? Depends on how the current setup fits, steers and rides. Rears are 255/45. Barely fills up the GT rear wheel-wells.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

2012-4-14%20-%2008[1] copy.jpg

Are you planning on running hanging pedals? On the floor mounted rail pedal kits you just have to turn the bracket over and Wha-la!

under_hood_2.jpg

I think this style also uses a bell crank. As long as your hood goes back and has the dash board you have an open area to work in. My black buggy doesn't which is why my pedals are still on the floor.

[GS guy]

Floor mount for me. I couldn't see any way to do a top mount - runs right into the fuel tank forward MC's, instruments with rear MC's. Ran out of real estate real fast up front!

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"... Ran out of real estate real fast up front! "

Yeah, that happens real fast in glass buggies doesn't it.

Lee

[GS guy]

Yes it does 'Fog - note the MC placement on the clutch pedal. The normal push-rod placement is dead centered on the lower suspension A-arm attachment pivot/bolt directly in front of it! No room at the Inn! A somewhat complicated solution, but it does clear the steering rack much easier. A forward firewall with additional clutch MC bracing has been added since this mock-up pic. It really surprised me how much room the original torsion beam suspension provided up under the gas tank - "wide open" compared to what I have now!
Also of note - the GS 85" wheelbase chassis places the cockpit about 6" forward of the standard shortened Beetle pan. This allows room for the big Corvair in the middle. With considerable work I was able to shoehorn the Suby lump in place of the 'Vair. I tried to eeek out a touch more cockpit room in the process, maybe got an extra couple of inches at most. Enough to squeeze some normal seats in there instead of the original fiberglass "tub" with it's fixed molded in seat depressions. Mid-engine doesn't come without a cost in these cars!
Jeff

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Yeah, my conversion is almost the same but yet different because I am using a stock pan. Not enough room to swing a cat flea (an old saying made famous by 'The Bickersons" an old radio show).