I have tested this in my car and on my dyno. I feel so strongly that it is a waste of time that I'm gonna test it extensively as soon as my next 2165 test engin is up and going...go to the CLF and do a search and read my stroy I posted there, no calculations, no BS, just what happened in a vehicle with both arrangements and several configurations of TIV and TI cooler....increase the volume and velocity of the airflow, or its a waste of time in my book, I'll prove it and share the info, give me 3 weeks.
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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
Type 4 cooler conversion
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Freq2002
- Posts: 813
- Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:01 am
Type 4 cooler conversion
Ed, I beleive what you're thinking of is the old style cooler that used the air from the 3/4 side. I'm using the later model doghouse shroud where the cooler has a seperate air supply.
One would think that a larger cooler with more surface area would cool more efficiently as the oil moves a bit slower & thus has more oppurtunity to shed heat, even at the same air volume. It SOUNDS like a good idea, but then we're talkin to guys here who do this full time.
I'll prolly use the T4 cooler I have just to save me the $$ of getting another T1
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Where are we going, & why am I in a handbasket?...
One would think that a larger cooler with more surface area would cool more efficiently as the oil moves a bit slower & thus has more oppurtunity to shed heat, even at the same air volume. It SOUNDS like a good idea, but then we're talkin to guys here who do this full time.
I'll prolly use the T4 cooler I have just to save me the $$ of getting another T1
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Where are we going, & why am I in a handbasket?...
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Pillow
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am
Type 4 cooler conversion
>I'd have to compare the 'wind' coming out of it being similar to a mouse fart.<
I have to agree with that statement! It is really sad how little air goes though the cooler.
I guess it works though.
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Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
I have to agree with that statement! It is really sad how little air goes though the cooler.
I guess it works though.
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Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
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Bruce2
- Posts: 7105
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:01 am
Type 4 cooler conversion
When you do the test Jake, make sure the fan shrouds are identical. There are many variations of doghouse fan shrouds made between '71 and '02. Pay particular attention to the way air is ducted to the cooler.
If the T4 cooler swap caused the temps to go up, then taking a T1 cooler and blocking part of it should make the temps go down, right?
Adrian, I think the vanes do the opposite of what you said. The vanes will take turbulent air flow and straighten it out so its more like laminar flow. And there's less restriction when the flow is laminar.
If the T4 cooler swap caused the temps to go up, then taking a T1 cooler and blocking part of it should make the temps go down, right?
Adrian, I think the vanes do the opposite of what you said. The vanes will take turbulent air flow and straighten it out so its more like laminar flow. And there's less restriction when the flow is laminar.
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Pillow
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am
Type 4 cooler conversion
Bruce2, good logic on the first part about taping off a portion of the T1 cooler.
In further reflection of the "mouse fart" of air flow. I can only think that the surface area of the oil cooler is what radiates the heat off and that the mild air flow just sweeps the hot air out from the oil cooler. Sounds really simplistic, but just let that sink in for a minute. The normal thought is that the mass of high speed and volumes of air rolling through the oil cooler is what cools the oil, as we have seen this clearly cannot be the case with such a wild air flow. So the only thing we are left with is a radiation oil cooler in reality.
As for the smoothing of air issue. Yes, at the end of its journey at the oil cooler I believe it is a smooth flow, but at the beginning I think the airflow is quite jumbled in that circular vane (then again maybe in a fluid dynamics demonstration it might work better than I can visualise?).
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Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
In further reflection of the "mouse fart" of air flow. I can only think that the surface area of the oil cooler is what radiates the heat off and that the mild air flow just sweeps the hot air out from the oil cooler. Sounds really simplistic, but just let that sink in for a minute. The normal thought is that the mass of high speed and volumes of air rolling through the oil cooler is what cools the oil, as we have seen this clearly cannot be the case with such a wild air flow. So the only thing we are left with is a radiation oil cooler in reality.
As for the smoothing of air issue. Yes, at the end of its journey at the oil cooler I believe it is a smooth flow, but at the beginning I think the airflow is quite jumbled in that circular vane (then again maybe in a fluid dynamics demonstration it might work better than I can visualise?).
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Adrian Pillow
'66 VW Westfalia - "Biscuit"
'67 VW Deluxe Westfakia - "Dino"
'79 Porsche 911 SC - "Cochese"
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Sidewalk
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:01 am
Type 4 cooler conversion
It is similar a water cooled engine. Moving the water faster will make the engine run hotter. You need absorbtion time for the heat to transfer.
That is why somepeople will run without a thermostat in a H2O car and complain about overheating.
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'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"
But are you gutless?
Sarcasm is one service we offer.
That is why somepeople will run without a thermostat in a H2O car and complain about overheating.
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'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"
But are you gutless?
Sarcasm is one service we offer.
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tarnx
Type 4 cooler conversion
Interesting enough the air molecules on the surface of any thing do not move. With a given velocity the air moves faster and faster the farther you move away from the surface. The veins and ducting only direct the air flow of the fan. Same size duct same size fan same air flow. Where the problem lies is that too fast of air flow doesn't have time to absorb the heat. Greater surface area has a greater chance of expending the heat. With the same air flow the larger cooler should remove more heat than a smaller cooler with the same amount of air flow. What may happen is that the air may get saturated with heat and can can't pick up any more.
All this is conjecture. The only answer is to experiment. Go for it Jake!
All this is conjecture. The only answer is to experiment. Go for it Jake!
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nelson845
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:09 am
Re: Type 4 cooler conversion
....and still waiting for the results of said experiment, has the 3 weeks gone by yet? Just kidding, its cold out and I'm killing time reading old threads.
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farmer
- Posts: 2399
- Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:01 am
Re: Type 4 cooler conversion
Maybe he forgot about this thread before taking himself somewhat out of the Type 4 business.
But I can tell you the exact same stories about the lack of results. In some cases I did actually see an approx 5 degrees C. reduction in temps in the 3300 - 4500 rpm area. That was in bay busses with the std 002 transmission. Below those rpms there were little to no difference.
Same type of set up in a 69 bug with factory 2 window louvered lid, the oil temps ROSE at rpms under 3300 rpms, like almost 10 degrees and went back to around normal as rpm increased.
Same set up in a 57 oval with deck lid stand offs. No apparent difference at normal rpms. At higher rpm motorway cruises in warm weather 4000 to 4500 rpms sustained we could detect an approx 5 degree reduction in temps. We anticipated that it was because of the slight ram effect with the raised lid.
After that we stopped making that mod.
T
But I can tell you the exact same stories about the lack of results. In some cases I did actually see an approx 5 degrees C. reduction in temps in the 3300 - 4500 rpm area. That was in bay busses with the std 002 transmission. Below those rpms there were little to no difference.
Same type of set up in a 69 bug with factory 2 window louvered lid, the oil temps ROSE at rpms under 3300 rpms, like almost 10 degrees and went back to around normal as rpm increased.
Same set up in a 57 oval with deck lid stand offs. No apparent difference at normal rpms. At higher rpm motorway cruises in warm weather 4000 to 4500 rpms sustained we could detect an approx 5 degree reduction in temps. We anticipated that it was because of the slight ram effect with the raised lid.
After that we stopped making that mod.
T