My next drag beetle build.

[joosep]

Hi! I´m from Estonia and this is my second car thread in this forum (last one is here: viewtopic.php?t=146216)
I have to start another one because I wrecked my car ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dYE7oNSroM )
So please forgive me my bad English and I´ll try to add a lot of pics.
My last car was so broken that even the belt stripped and valves bent and came threw new turbo, ecu had a ripped off connector and diff started coming out of my trans, so I had to really look for good parts and all I found were wheels in my gearbox, as I payed 3+K for them I had to figure it out how could I use the internals of my last gearbox on my new project. I had some ideas with opel kadett c but my team was missing my beetle, so it was decided. Mid engine decision came quick when I walked away from kadett. I really loved the low weight of my last car (860kg empty) and I wanted to go even deeper. As I would like some better handling I wanted to go tighter with rear end and inline engines came to my mind. (good for rear end weight also) As I was really thinking too much about weight because its not that easy to make 1k HP from straight4 than v8, I decided to go with docol R8. My friend came to help and started making me a new frame and now, 10 months later and skipped season I had enough and that unfinished frame is at home Now I should start with pics because I have no idea how much you understand me.

New vs. old:


Body that somebody donated me:


After some cutting:




The moment I realized that something is really wrong and new frame is ALOT wider that beetle can fit :S Please don´t ask how but 15cm wider. I needed some doors and quick (To weld them in and cut body to half)


My friend ingmar had a doors for me:


But I loved that blue too much (I have had 10+ red cars)




















I hope you forgive me for cutting these cars but they were at the end of their lives, no documents, no engines....sorry
Next time I quess I have to step back with that build and show some work we have done in computer with that project because metalworks are not going as fast as I would like.
As I come back to my weight calculation I´m hoping to get it 7xxkg with that car. Engine should give me about -50kg compared to aluminium V8 and docol should give me another -50kg. I hope it doesn´t need a ton of hp to make 8s passes. faster than 8.8 would be my next target because it was the time my v8 made. Feeling it doesn´t need even a 3 bar of boost.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

An impressive start!

I like the insignia in the top of the body which also acts as a doubler and spreads loads around.

The cage design is something I don't remember being seen before but looks to be very strong.

Lee

[AdminSteve]

Looking good, keep the updates coming.

[joosep]

Maybe this post should have been first one but hope its still ok. Atleast on the first page of this topic.
I have to explain this non traditional engine choice. My last car was with audi V8 and it was incredible engine but with some little problems. In midengine build it was too wide and added nonwanted width, I thaught it was too heavy (actually it was a lot lighter as I was thinking but that came out later) Main problem was that there were no parts available (pistons, rings, metal head gaskets, main bearings, rod bearings, head studs etc) so I had do use a lot of used stuff and just hope they are good enough. I pulled 600kw 1000NM from wheels quite easily (only rods were not stock) but I quess that stock parts limits were quite close and finding good shape engine case with OK bearings was harder as years ago when I started with that engine.
My new target for the new engine were: inline 4, cast iron engine case, turbo engine for good aftermarket part, cheap and a lot available, 2+ Liters of displacement for better spool with 1000hp turbos. And Saab was hitting all these points. it costs nothing, engine case looks really tough because it has 14mm between cylinder bores, all 2 and 2.3L engines are quite identical (same bore, same block, same head) and they are made 30+ years and tons of them available with really cheap.
So I bought my first engine and starter with measuring the weigh (it was 30+kg heavier as I thaught)



After removing some parts I dont need...



...it was looking a lot better (aroung 60 kg lighter than my aluminium v8 was)



Then we had to started scanning parts to make adapter plate for SAAB engine and AUDI Trans.



This is the part we are actually working on and I hope I will get that in few weeks max.


In computer they are already sitting next to each other


When my friend was calculating me a new front axle...


...we came to idea that maybe we add some pipes and we easier to imagine how it comes together.


...and it really helps to see tight spots we need to redeal


Now I have to start working to make some new content for that forum it really helps me because ads some pressure.
This all we do in computer helps to make changes I want, compared to my last frame. I wanted some more headroom because it broke my helmet when I crashed. I wanted safer seat with better angle, I want to make it 5cm shorter in front and add 7+ cm hehind my seat for better weight ratio. I really would like to know new ratio because it pulled to rear wheels even with 3rd gear with 37/63 ratio -50kg from engine should give me atleast 3% difference I quess, maybe I can start harder then. I really hope to get it from 1.36 to 1.2 @ 60ft. One old video when it had only 600 horses and I tried that is it possible to make it with second gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HxSvyq9zSo

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Are you working in CAD, CAM or both? It's been almost 25 years since I worked in CAD (4 different CAD programs over the years) but at the time CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing) was still in the incomplete development process at the time.

I see what I think might be CAM being used every once in a while, on some of the "toy" builds.

Lee

[joosep]

Are you working in CAD, CAM or both? It's been almost 25 years since I worked in CAD (4 different CAD programs over the years) but at the time CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing) was still in the incomplete development process at the time.

I see what I think might be CAM being used every once in a while, on some of the "toy" builds.

Lee

Actually I just have an ideas and then I look for solutions threw my friends who has some knowledges or some cnc machines It´s more available now than before. 2 of my friends has cnc mills already, 2 of my friends had 3d scanners, one of my friend has lazer cutter and tens of my friends are better in CAD than I am. My main job is instal ECUs and tune them on my dyno, I do it at home and only as much as needed for living, I´m not a hard worker type I always get tags like different or smtng because we have no beetle racing culture here at all, totally zero and I have to find my own solutions. Our aircooled vw scene is really weak here. We have 1 badly chopped bug + 2 I chopped myself, 1 nicely built T2 and tens of rotten ones, few rotten T1s and that´s it. We don´t have even 1 split bug if I´m not mistaken, 1 oval came here few years ago and another ones are just regular garbage.

[Chip Birks]

Glad to see you at it again. Excited to see what you come up with!

[Ol'fogasaurus]

When I retired CAD was still waiting for the necessary CAD program development of 6 axis milling machines... sounds like they may have made it .

Your designs look good/interesting, but some small angle joins could be added for handling stress and load transfer on the tubing. Like electricity, stress does not like 90° type of sharp corners when trying to move down the surfaces (inner and outer surfaces) of the tubing. An open-end angle joining the tubes (for welding) eases the load transfer directions for them.

Lee

[joosep]

When I retired CAD was still waiting for the necessary CAD program development of 6 axis milling machines... sounds like they may have made it .

Your designs look good/interesting, but some small angle joins could be added for handling stress and load transfer on the tubing. Like electricity, stress does not like 90° type of sharp corners when trying to move down the surfaces (inner and outer surfaces) of the tubing. An open-end angle joining the tubes (for welding) eases the load transfer directions for them.

Lee

Most of the frame comes from the rules but yes, there are some part what can be done several ways. I decided not change a lot because I see my 9x360 spins lived cage every day and just want that if needed, the new cage will be atleast same strong. (Crash video in first post)

[panel]

How come you didn't go with a VR6 or a 5 cylinder Vw engine ? Cost or ? Seems like a lot of high HP can be had from a VR6 T.

[joosep]

How come you didn't go with a VR6 or a 5 cylinder Vw engine ? Cost or ? Seems like a lot of high HP can be had from a VR6 T.

This answer is actually quite easy for me because there are so many reasons.
VR is too wide and too heavy compared to that saab engine. Once I scaled complete VR6 With trans and it was 300kg (Way more than aluminium V8) VR bolt pattern is the only vw / audi pattern that doesn´t fit with my trans.
I´m not fan of the unequal ports in these heads, even angeled stressplates making is something really different. 6 cylinder engines are just off for me. Im just the guy who prefers regular 4 or V8 and nothing between. There are also too many high power VR6 engines already. Buying 6 or 8 pistons is not a big deal, boring 15 degree angle vr6 block makes the costs even with v8. When I don´t win in the tightness of rear axle, weight or cost, it would be just losing 2 cylinders without a reason
Why not 5 cylinder is the lenght of the engine. With inline 4 the rear axle moves already 5cm (compared to v8) and with straight 5 it would move 15 and it would look really odd because I needed some more leg room and totally the position of the rear wheels would be 20cm of the right place.
And as common, the cost. Both variants you named cost about 7-10 times more than saab engine

I´m really happy with my desision and waiting the first start with 100kg lighter car and hoping 60-40 weigh ratio and higher starting power, more stability because of the tighter rear end etc
Got some parts and add some pics next week

[panel]

Great explanation , you've definitely done your research !!

[joosep]

Great explanation , you've definitely done your research !!

Actually I did. It wasn´t a lot of work because I´ve been with engines and adding some power about 15+ years and as I´ve installed about 300+ ECUs and tuned more than that, then I´ve seen some engine failures. Cost, weight, strong block, rear end width were main arguments.
Audi 1.8T - Too many have built and 1000+ hp is done here in estonia....just too common. Quite Cheap about 300€ but little displacement and thin case.
Audi 2.0 16V - You will be always compared to boba motoring, they are already hard to find and cost already 1000€ for blank
Nissan sr ETC japan engines, they are quite weak and expansive, 1000+ HP is done here but head and case flex was always a problem
Volvo 16v - Heads are hard to find and cost is also near a thousand. And so many done in sweden already.

SAAB - nobody likes them, nobody uses them because they are on FWD cars that nobody likes. But, they cost nothing (eight engines I bought for looking differences were about 600€ totally) and there are always tens of them available when needed. All of them are with same block (about 30 years of manufactoring) same bore on 2,0 and 2,3 engine. Same heads, same valve size. 13mm thickness between cylinders compared with 8mm on most engines I checked. They are with 90mm bore and 90mm stroke on 2.3 and this squere means something in motorsport. They have long 152mm rods (Better rod angle than M3. Old versions (204/234) have strong pistons and rods, there are some tests done in Sweden and 700-800hp- 800-900nm is possible with stock internals but that info came later to me. When I made my desision I found 599HP 700NM Saab 93 that made over 300+km/h on a mile with stock rods and pistons with smoking tires (fwd) They are turbo engines from factory, it usually means that you can buy strong aftermarket parts. Their stock head gasket is metal and costs 20€ VS 2x custom (about 1000€) for my last audi v8 is a massive difference. 550€ for forged pistons vs 1500+€ for 8 custom pistons on my audi v8 and I have to add that on audi I needed to sleeve te case for new pistons, 250€ head studs VS 1000+ custom order on my audi, 395€ rods vs 1200€ on my audi, it all helped me to make a desision. I love that head comes down in few minutes without loosing cams, I love that, waterpump is external and it cant be more easy to remove it and use an electrical. I like saab 24mm rod pin (audi has always some problems with their 19 and 20mm wrist pins) Let me just try what I can do with my tight budget but I really thinking, that I´m on the right way because this car will be 7xx kg (100kg lighter) and I dont need a lot power to make 8s passes and 4 cylinders can make it happen. I love to compare then with 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 cylinder or litre engines when we are in same second I really hope it will be a lot of easier to drive because I´ll try to get it about 30cm tighter at rear end. Will, see, just few of my thaughts. Its just a test for me because I work on that scene and I should be able to make some nice power from small engines and not to go easy way with LS or some other big CC engine. It's all about adverticing myself because I'm going to use my own ecu brand and its getting my new product (can expander for egt and extra sensors and outputs) and my car is the best way to test and prove that it works. Manual, 4banger, Irs, midengine - should be quite nice challenge for keeping myself busy when there are PG, LS, 4Link in the same class

[joosep]

Been lazy but something is still done.
Some DXF files + lazer cutting and now the positon of engine and trans is fixed. And I have to wait for rear axle parts to see where I can add some tubes and just weld it all together. Pics should be easy to understand, so I don´t make long comments

Just for testing, I cutted 1mm thick middleplate between engine and trans. It was good idea because we need to change some things.

[panel]

Will you be making the intake manifold ?