944 rear torsion bars

[H2OSB]

Are your 21mm bars 26 9/16s inches long? I thought the smallest diameter of the longest bars was 22mm.

H2OSB

[oprn]

Yes they are. The serial number on the pan says it's a '73 but it was also a swing axle. I have been told I am wrong but I suspect the car came from Mexico. I had a '73 standard Beetle with a swing axle and the label on the driver's door jam clearly stated "Made in Mexico".

[Ian Godfrey]

I think Elephant racing does bars the have the threaded hole already in them. A carbide drill gets through these bars and you might need a carbide tap as well.

[oprn]

Thanks! I am not looking to buy new bars, I just want to be able to adjust them on the fly so to speak without a complete disassembly of the rear suspension. The theory is that if the weight is off the wheels, back off the torsion bar tube end plates so the spring plates can be pried out just enough to slip past the lower stop then there should be no tension on the bar. I used lots of anti seize to the splines on both ends so they should move easily. Slide them out until they disengage, change the spring plate angle and slide them back in.

I am wondering now if it would be simpler to just tack weld a nut to the end of the torsion bar. Should be able to do that without adding enough heat to change the temper.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks! I am not looking to buy new bars, I just want to be able to adjust them on the fly so to speak without a complete disassembly of the rear suspension. The theory is that if the weight is off the wheels, back off the torsion bar tube end plates so the spring plates can be pried out just enough to slip past the lower stop then there should be no tension on the bar. I used lots of anti seize to the splines on both ends so they should move easily. Slide them out until they disengage, change the spring plate angle and slide them back in.

I am wondering now if it would be simpler to just tack weld a nut to the end of the torsion bar. Should be able to do that without adding enough heat to change the temper.

Based on what I think you said the answer is you probably don't want to do it. The "stops" are important and keep the trailing arms from running free. The arms spring plates can be notched but then you can make the notch too deep.

spring notch 02.jpg

This is a notch to allow the arms to go lower for more travel.

Too deep notching and the spring plates can't be changed safely. You have to measure at the end of the spring plate but take the torsion arm off, put the spring plate on the notch, measure that then slide the arms down past the stop and you can find out how much notching you may want to do.

vw swing axle.jpg

vw-swing-axle-irs[1].jpg

Not sure if the bottom 2 pictures help but there is more information to see.

Lee

[oprn]

Double post.

[oprn]

It is now an IRS and I used 944 torsion bars. I indexed them a few degrees lower than the Beetle bars but they are still too high and sit on the bottom stops with the weight on the car. I need to re-index them so the car is lower.

[Bruce.m]

I used an old iPhone & the spirit-level app to measure the angle for a perfect match side to side. Just remember to gently lift the spring plate to remove the small amount of play at the splines.

With a full shell I used 20.5 degrees & it’s about right (not slammed)

[oprn]

The wheel alignment is now done. It turned out well considering I set the whole rear suspension up with a plumb bob a tape measure and a spirit level. All that needed adjusting was toe in on one side a wee bit! The front end actually required more adjustment than the rear. I have since dropped the ride height to the bottom of the available adjustment to get it off the bottom stops. The ride is now very firm but acceptable I think. The front is still a bit stiffer than the rear so I may pull a few leaves sometime in the future.

I need to get the Missus in it too and run a few winding roads the get the full effect of the changes. At this point I am thinking the suspension has exceeded the torsional stiffness of the body. Further handling improvements need to come by way of stiffening up the body shell.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

There is a weld in adjuster for the front beam you can buy. I know there is one for the BJ setup and I think there is one for the K&L unit.

On the BJ setup the "stack" is not square like the K&L allowing the top & or bottom of stack of the torsion setup to be removed softening things up. Somewhere I have pictures of it and I will try to find it. The beam I did, the lower part of the shock towers turned out to be rusted out and not usable.

If I can find them I will post what I have.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

011 - Copy.JPG

I posted this in the wrong place but this is the adapter to allow the raising or lowering the torsion stack on the top, bottom or both front beam tubes.

cutting the beam 010.JPG

This is the adapter sitting in place waiting to be centered in to where one wants it.

DSC04124.JPG

This is something else that can be done. They are suspension arm stops incase of a hard suspension hit.

Lee

[oprn]

Yes I have a lowered adjustable beam in the car now. The problem I found with it is that the more you lower the ride height the less suspension travel there is. If I were to do it over I would get lowered spindles instead.

As far as stiffening the body shell, I personally hate the look of a full cage in an open street Buggy. To me there is no point to having an open car, might as well go back to a full body. I have this car as a marital compromise with the Missus. I wanted a highway cruiser motorbike for retirement and she said not while she was married to me... so, I have my open air and she has her 4 wheels. If safety were my only focus then I would not ride motorcycles nor would I drive this Buggy. There is nothing "safe" about these cars no matter the amount of tubing you add to them. You can improve them some it is true but they will never be safe!

All that said I am considering adding a dash loop tied into tubing down the sides up under the lip of the body and bolted to the rear shock towers. That should help some. If I were to use square tubing down the sides and seal it well it could be used for extra fuel capacity for our long trips too.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Yes I have a lowered adjustable beam in the car now. The problem I found with it is that the more you lower the ride height the less suspension travel there is. If I were to do it over I would get lowered spindles instead.

As far as stiffening the body shell, I personally hate the look of a full cage in an open street Buggy. To me there is no point to having an open car, might as well go back to a full body. I have this car as a marital compromise with the Missus. I wanted a highway cruiser motorbike for retirement and she said not while she was married to me... so, I have my open air and she has her 4 wheels. If safety were my only focus then I would not ride motorcycles nor would I drive this Buggy. There is nothing "safe" about these cars no matter the amount of tubing you add to them. You can improve them some it is true but they will never be safe!

All that said I am considering adding a dash loop tied into tubing down the sides up under the lip of the body and bolted to the rear shock towers. That should help some. If I were to use square tubing down the sides and seal it well it could be used for extra fuel capacity for our long trips too.

Yes, when you do lower the front suspension internally you also loose downward travel potential. If you visualize it there are ways but again, there are gains and losses to just about everything.

I am not sure, but I seem to remember there being "dropped spindles. A quick search: https://www.bing.com/search?q=dropped+s ... 09&pc=LCTS

A mild "rake" (an old term but then I am at the age where I am starting to rot ) can have advantages but then again, you have changed the front-end geometry somewhat (I just remembered that there might be parts to change (tip) the beam giving more geometry. Again, where is the limit going to be?

Dune Buggy rebuild 10-1-06 051 (2).jpg

This is the cage I had built for my blue buggy. It was designed by a person who also builds rails. At the top the two fore to aft top side bars are bend to help getting in and out. In the center of the top the bar is bent slightly for help getting in and out and I have attached camera's on it.

What it doesn't have is side bars and that is because the bottom of the cage is attached to a thicker metal body lift I made but that is putting the fasteners in shear and the body mounting flanges would be involved. I still would recommend the side bar about the height off the bottom of the cage to protect against a side hit in a collision. I think below the top of that part of the body and just high enough to miss your elbow and will allow a boredom spot (if padded) for the elbow on long trips.

A pair of tubes going from the top of the cage going back to cover the rear of the bug would/could help support the engine cage.

I'm not sure about the use of square or rectangular tubing as they have certain weaknesses. A welded seam would have to be on top but, the better much more expensive formed tube would be way more expensive. Usually, the material mix between round and square or rectangular tubing is different too.

I think I have better pix of the cage if you want them.

Lee

[oprn]

This is our Buggy at present. Like I said before I really want to stay with the classic open Buggy look. We do not take it off road, I could not imagine doing so seriously as the body is far too flexible. I could see cracks developing in the fiberglass in a short time. I would not mind a roll bar but they add nothing to the torsional stiffness of the car And I would want to brace it rearward to avoid the "rat trap" effect. However, that combined with a dash hoop, tied into a bar down each side and tucked out of sight under the upper body lip would not look that bad and would add back some torsional stiffness.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

If done right, the cage can add strength to the buggy. The one I showed was done that way as at the time it was still street legal in WA. It was the "turning brakes" the police did not like, and they had been made illegal for on the street but later allowed them on a certain mountain area where off-road was allowed.

Dune house diary 081.jpg

This was the blue dune buggy the day it came home from having the cage built. A convertible top, side curtains, windshield were already there. The top did not work well off road, so it quickly came off when going out onto the sand.

Dune Buggy rebuild 10-25-06 002.jpg

The cage goes from the rear of the pan (the rear seat area of the pan) to the dashboard area adding additional strength to the pan. It could have been designed better but then it would have gotten so heavy/busy it wouldn't been good off-road. The fuel tank was moved from the front of the pan to the rear seating area of the body for safety reasons but that is not something you would need to do.

A cage would be there for keeping you and your wife safe when going on the long trips you two make every year.

When I got my last truck, it was a new design so when heading down to the dune area in Oregon days after I bought it, I almost got run off the freeway by "lookers" who drifted out of their lane and into the lane I was in looking at it and pointing at things.

With a "dune buggy" they are getting very rare so I would suspect that that is a very possible thing that could happen which is why it is one of the reasons why I am recommending it.