How I believe it makes more power:
ACCURACY: Put a timing light on this puppy and see the numbers on the degree wheel STOP instead of dance anywhere, and all over the place..Accuracy is important, as in this case it is timing, and when you want to start a burn, timing is everything. When optimizing ignition we start at 28degrees full advance and do a full pull all the way to 34, then look for the best numbers (not max power, best curve) It is amazing what a 2 degree change can do, it may be the difference in burning all the fuel and making power, or wanting to richen up in the top end from not enough advance..
With that said I believe that anything thats as accurate as the Mallory WILL make more power consistantly, just as it has. It keeps the timing where we put it, not where it wants it.
I want EVERYONE here to realize something . I by no means are affiliated with John, or get a commission for selling anything he has. I'm GIVING the enthusiast the most accurate information that we have available, so their choice of parts will be what they desire, not a "Pig in a poke" so don't think that I'm saying all of this because John sells them.. Thats NOT the way it is..
I know what I bolt on, and I know what it does on the torque scale. Like I said in my original post, I see that the DTM works, and so does the Mallory, POINT BLANK! I don't care why it works, and don't have time to disassemble it to figure it out, but it works! The only thing I have found better was my direct fire set up, that cost triple what the Mallory does.
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
2270 Testing
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Searoy
- Posts: 2869
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 12:01 am
2270 Testing
The HP numbers have a nice climb and peak @ 5000 RPM @ 119.7 not bad for a non revving engine. I took it to 6 K once, but could tell that it was not liking it and it fell on its face after 5 K..
Add a TS04 turbo with a high exhaust A/R. It's big, and won't add boost until 4k.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
Add a TS04 turbo with a high exhaust A/R. It's big, and won't add boost until 4k.
------------------
*** Teach a Man to Fish ***
Searoy
"I tend to lean toward a tighter gap and a
looser skirt....a little slap never hurt." -- Joe of the West
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ray greenwood
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:01 am
2270 Testing
What Jake is finding with the Mallory dist. (the accuracy level) is one of the achilles heels of the original 205 series and 205-905 series FI distributors in the type 4. The increase in available throttle response I got just in rebushing the original FI dist, and also rebushing the holes in the advance weights, taking the slack out of the springs, and putting level rubbing blocks under the advance weights and plate (to keep the weights from cocking)...made a huge improvement. I can't use a mallory with the original FI...but putting in and trueing 3 sets of ball bearings is actually simpler than having new bushings milled. I have found that the axial play...which is amazingly huge in most stock dist. is one of the worst problems for the FI. I have shimmed it out to about .002 axial clearance...at operating temp. Havn't tried it yet. We'll see. Ray
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njv
- Posts: 817
- Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 12:01 am
2270 Testing
nice info.
but just going off at a bit of a tangent jake can you tell us the comp ratio of this engine i gues its fairly high but just how high?
my gues 9.5-1 close?
how does the bad boy idle does the accuracy of the mallory help out here?
any chance of getting a little snippit of video footage of one of your engines on the net too oogle at:-)
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neil verdon 1966 t3 sqr on irs pan.
but just going off at a bit of a tangent jake can you tell us the comp ratio of this engine i gues its fairly high but just how high?
my gues 9.5-1 close?
how does the bad boy idle does the accuracy of the mallory help out here?
any chance of getting a little snippit of video footage of one of your engines on the net too oogle at:-)
------------------
neil verdon 1966 t3 sqr on irs pan.
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Hot Wheels
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 12:01 am
2270 Testing
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MASSIVE TYPE IV:
<B>I have noted the advance curves to stay the same on most TIV engines, no matter what exhaust and etc are used...I can email you a set of curves, so you can pick out what you want, it will vary some for every engine, but have been pretty consistant, no matter what changes were made to the engine..
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to see that info if you wouldnt mind. I think i will run a few baselines with the 009 and ignitor then switch in the mallory to see what difference it makes on mine.
Thanks
Sean
<B>I have noted the advance curves to stay the same on most TIV engines, no matter what exhaust and etc are used...I can email you a set of curves, so you can pick out what you want, it will vary some for every engine, but have been pretty consistant, no matter what changes were made to the engine..
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to see that info if you wouldnt mind. I think i will run a few baselines with the 009 and ignitor then switch in the mallory to see what difference it makes on mine.
Thanks
Sean
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
2270 Testing
The Mallory does help with idle, but with this particular cam she idles @ 800 rpm like silk, no lope or flat spots...It is getting installed on Monday, I'll let you knowhow it pulls.
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
-
MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
-
njv
- Posts: 817
- Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 12:01 am
2270 Testing
jake .
sounds sweet but im gagging to know at what comp ratio your running this little monster and what octance you will have to feed it you said you use amoco earlier what flavour .
id love to be there to get a ride monday.
------------------
neil verdon 1966 t3 sqr on irs pan.
sounds sweet but im gagging to know at what comp ratio your running this little monster and what octance you will have to feed it you said you use amoco earlier what flavour .
id love to be there to get a ride monday.
------------------
neil verdon 1966 t3 sqr on irs pan.
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K70
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:51 am
Re: 2270 Testing
ray greenwood wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2002 10:33 am What Jake is finding with the Mallory dist. (the accuracy level) is one of the achilles heels of the original 205 series and 205-905 series FI distributors in the type 4. The increase in available throttle response I got just in rebushing the original FI dist, and also rebushing the holes in the advance weights, taking the slack out of the springs, and putting level rubbing blocks under the advance weights and plate (to keep the weights from cocking)...made a huge improvement. I can't use a mallory with the original FI...but putting in and trueing 3 sets of ball bearings is actually simpler than having new bushings milled. I have found that the axial play...which is amazingly huge in most stock dist. is one of the worst problems for the FI. I have shimmed it out to about .002 axial clearance...at operating temp. Havn't tried it yet. We'll see. Ray
-
raygreenwood
- Posts: 11913
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: 2270 Testing
Sorry I took so long to see this query to an answer I posted 23 years ago!
I am assuming you want to know if I got this modification done with the ball bearings. Yes and no.
I had one test mule distributor way back then (the one I am speaking of in that reply). First, I had to hone the inner bore of the distributor with the stock bushings removed. Finding a ball beaing that would work in all three dimensions (OD, ID and thickness) was kind of impossible. I had to go up slightly in OD to get one with an ID that was slightly overize...and then basically shim the ID. The three bearings stacked up alone were not the exat right height so I used thrust washers to seperate them.
I only put a couple thousand miles on this distributor before it had an issue. The OD of the bearings were not tight enough i nthe bore and it eventually started to wear. BUT....it proved the concept....toward getting rid of slop/inaccuracy in the distributor and that fact alone allowing better tuning of fuel mixture (keep in mind that my stuff is all D-jet where very minor changes in ignition or anything will physically affect fuel mixture at the MAP sensor)
The concept comprises several items:
1. All of the little details with the weights and getting the worn oval holes in the weights rebushed using (at that time) small rulon or nylon bushings I found at electronics supply houses. Now, moving forward I will simply make me a jig on a block of wood so I know original hole placement, then drill the pivot hole out oversized and then fill it with 650* solder I bought at digikey (pretty hard solder) and then redrill the hole. It can always be redone at that rate and is kind like making your own babbit bearings.
2. There is a TON of slack in even moderately worn but very old advance mechanism plates. Take a look at this thread and see what all it entails and how to clean it up. This helps accuracy big time.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=686352
3. Getting rid of the slack between the drive dog and the distributor body is also a big time improvement. I hate to argue with the distributor guru's on the STF and Samba...so I don't...but the old adage that you MUST use the stock German fiber washers...is not true. You do not want to use steel or brass, but any high temperature, self lubricating plastic washers that you can get in the right thickness will work just fine. I have used them for decades.
Nylon is not high temperature enough. Teflon is...but is too soft. But Rulon, PEEK and Torlon and a few others are great and can be had from Mcmaster carr.
4. Along those same lines and with the same realization about the capability of the low friction plastic....I remade a distributor and in place of the ball bearings I used a stack of PEEK washers...high impact, very low friction and 550* F constant. I cannot remember which size I bought but it was tight on both ID and OD. I was able to lock the stack of washers on a mandral/rod between two hose clamps and sand the OD of the stack of washers on my drill press until they were a dead fit in the distributor body.
I had to then slip/press them into the distributor body and made a lapping tool from sandpaper and a rod to lap the ID for a "0" slop...dead fit on the shaft. Then push all of the washers out and file (with a round diamond file) 3 notches on each ID and OD for oil to move around. Even if you have very low oil movement....this plastic is so high high temp, so slick, so low friction....even a drop of oil is more than enough.
I will try to find the part number and post it. You can buy them here.
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/washe ... washers~~/
So I went from try ball bearings (prove the concept which is a good one) to replacing them with a stack of tighly fitted, very low friction PEEK washers...a bushing stack really....that had so little discernable movement compared to stock and was also better than the ball bearings.
Also I have found through all of this that dreaded "spark scatter" that so many speak of....unless you have a really crappy bras gear and crank gear...90% of it is in all of these fine details we are speaking of in this thread. I have no discernable spark scatter with all of these little improvements
5. One other thing....VERY IMPORTANT....thing I am eyeballing lately.
When you put a distributor cap onto your aluminum Bosch distributor (its not much better on a cast iron one)....before you snap on the clips...do you not notice how much radial play there is?
We all assume that the two clips hold the cap pretty much centered (yes and no) and we all assume that the shaft is dead centered in the body casting...I can assure you its not.
What this really does is it means that there is considerable variation of gap between rotor tip and the four posts that feed your wires. This is no better than having four different gaps on your spark plugs. It makes a difference.
I made a little round plate mandrel to slip on the shaft with an adjustable feeler gauge screwed to one side (just a bumper really). I can put it on in place of the rotor and turn the distrubutor around until it does not hit any of the posts inside. But if you snap on the clips this changes.
I am thinking of slipping little pieces of feeler gauge stock under a couple of points around the edge of the cap to keep it exactly centered. Once I know the location I am probably going to tack weld these little shim strips (like 1/8" wide and maybe 1/4" long) to a band or clamp that I can clamp them in place so they stay there.
I have not yet had time to test if the caps themselves are what are off center.
Ray
I am assuming you want to know if I got this modification done with the ball bearings. Yes and no.
I had one test mule distributor way back then (the one I am speaking of in that reply). First, I had to hone the inner bore of the distributor with the stock bushings removed. Finding a ball beaing that would work in all three dimensions (OD, ID and thickness) was kind of impossible. I had to go up slightly in OD to get one with an ID that was slightly overize...and then basically shim the ID. The three bearings stacked up alone were not the exat right height so I used thrust washers to seperate them.
I only put a couple thousand miles on this distributor before it had an issue. The OD of the bearings were not tight enough i nthe bore and it eventually started to wear. BUT....it proved the concept....toward getting rid of slop/inaccuracy in the distributor and that fact alone allowing better tuning of fuel mixture (keep in mind that my stuff is all D-jet where very minor changes in ignition or anything will physically affect fuel mixture at the MAP sensor)
The concept comprises several items:
1. All of the little details with the weights and getting the worn oval holes in the weights rebushed using (at that time) small rulon or nylon bushings I found at electronics supply houses. Now, moving forward I will simply make me a jig on a block of wood so I know original hole placement, then drill the pivot hole out oversized and then fill it with 650* solder I bought at digikey (pretty hard solder) and then redrill the hole. It can always be redone at that rate and is kind like making your own babbit bearings.
2. There is a TON of slack in even moderately worn but very old advance mechanism plates. Take a look at this thread and see what all it entails and how to clean it up. This helps accuracy big time.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=686352
3. Getting rid of the slack between the drive dog and the distributor body is also a big time improvement. I hate to argue with the distributor guru's on the STF and Samba...so I don't...but the old adage that you MUST use the stock German fiber washers...is not true. You do not want to use steel or brass, but any high temperature, self lubricating plastic washers that you can get in the right thickness will work just fine. I have used them for decades.
Nylon is not high temperature enough. Teflon is...but is too soft. But Rulon, PEEK and Torlon and a few others are great and can be had from Mcmaster carr.
4. Along those same lines and with the same realization about the capability of the low friction plastic....I remade a distributor and in place of the ball bearings I used a stack of PEEK washers...high impact, very low friction and 550* F constant. I cannot remember which size I bought but it was tight on both ID and OD. I was able to lock the stack of washers on a mandral/rod between two hose clamps and sand the OD of the stack of washers on my drill press until they were a dead fit in the distributor body.
I had to then slip/press them into the distributor body and made a lapping tool from sandpaper and a rod to lap the ID for a "0" slop...dead fit on the shaft. Then push all of the washers out and file (with a round diamond file) 3 notches on each ID and OD for oil to move around. Even if you have very low oil movement....this plastic is so high high temp, so slick, so low friction....even a drop of oil is more than enough.
I will try to find the part number and post it. You can buy them here.
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/washe ... washers~~/
So I went from try ball bearings (prove the concept which is a good one) to replacing them with a stack of tighly fitted, very low friction PEEK washers...a bushing stack really....that had so little discernable movement compared to stock and was also better than the ball bearings.
Also I have found through all of this that dreaded "spark scatter" that so many speak of....unless you have a really crappy bras gear and crank gear...90% of it is in all of these fine details we are speaking of in this thread. I have no discernable spark scatter with all of these little improvements
5. One other thing....VERY IMPORTANT....thing I am eyeballing lately.
When you put a distributor cap onto your aluminum Bosch distributor (its not much better on a cast iron one)....before you snap on the clips...do you not notice how much radial play there is?
We all assume that the two clips hold the cap pretty much centered (yes and no) and we all assume that the shaft is dead centered in the body casting...I can assure you its not.
What this really does is it means that there is considerable variation of gap between rotor tip and the four posts that feed your wires. This is no better than having four different gaps on your spark plugs. It makes a difference.
I made a little round plate mandrel to slip on the shaft with an adjustable feeler gauge screwed to one side (just a bumper really). I can put it on in place of the rotor and turn the distrubutor around until it does not hit any of the posts inside. But if you snap on the clips this changes.
I am thinking of slipping little pieces of feeler gauge stock under a couple of points around the edge of the cap to keep it exactly centered. Once I know the location I am probably going to tack weld these little shim strips (like 1/8" wide and maybe 1/4" long) to a band or clamp that I can clamp them in place so they stay there.
I have not yet had time to test if the caps themselves are what are off center.
Ray