Cylinder 1 spark way off from TDC mark on fan hub

[Timas]

Hello all,
It has been quite awhile since I have posted anything. I am a little embarrassed to admit to all of you that it has taken me months( perhaps a year ) to finally have put my engine back together.
I will spare all of you my rants about what I have replaced and such.
Here is where I am. Forgive me, I do not know if this should be posted as separate questions.
Problem 1
Ignition on/fan hub at TDC (or at least I thought: I'll explain in a sec) good spark from center distributor wire when rotated. However, where I get spark for cylinder 1 seems really odd. The white dimples are where the TDC marks are located when looking at the hidden notch on the back lip of the fan hub. My finger is pointing at the white mark that is followed by 4 additional notches (TDC #1) kinda going off RATWELL on that, but that spot does have a notch on the backside.
The green mark is where I actually am getting a spark for cylinder 1.
Problem 2
My fuel pump does not spin with ignition on.
I replaced the dbl relay, the ignition switch and just got a new fuel pressure regulator. I just replaced the outlet fuel line over the weekend and got chemical burns from the gallon of 91 octane I split on me trying to get the new line in place. So the regulator is going to have to wait.

THANK YOU EVERYONE.
Please let me know if I broke rules and I will repost questions separately..

[Volksmeister]

Hello! I don't think you broke any rules at all.

I'm having a bit of a tough time following your explanation (sorry). I'm assuming the engine hasn't run and that where you say the spark is occurring is during static timing.

So rather than try and tell you exactly where you went wrong I have 3 mediate thoughts.
1) The engine is not actually at TDC on the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke.
2) The distributor to engine position (timing) is incorrect.
3) The fan pulley ring is not installed in the original orientation on the fan.

Here's what I think you should do (got kinda lengthy...):

1) Ensure TDC #1 cylinder on compression stroke: Loosen the #1 plug a few turns and rotate the engine clockwise until you feel/hear air leaking past the plug. Keep turning it until it stops hissing and you should be close to TDC. If the TDC notch on the pulley is at or near 0 then you're there.

If you are unsure about this and can't verify by determining piston position then do the following. You will need to remove fan and the long center bolt and washer that holds the fan pulley hub/adapter to the crankshaft. TDC crankshaft position for #1 cylinder is such that the keyway on the crankshaft that the steel fan hub/adapter slides over should be pointed to the left (90* counterclockwise from vertical). This, however, does not mean TDC on compression stroke. It could be the exhaust stroke.
So, pull off the 1/2 rocker cover and look at both valves for #1 cylinder. If the exhaust valve is open then you need to rotate the engine one full rotation until the keyway is pointing left again. Now both valves should be closed.

2)Check to see where the TDC/timing marks on the fan pulley are now. If it's wrong it'll be way off. someone (you?) may have put a mark at BDC (180* from TDC) on the pulley for adjusting valves. something to be aware of. You can always just start over with fresh marks that work for you.

3) Now the rotor on the distributor needs to point at the little notch on the rim of the distributor body or to whatever terminal on the distributor cap you are calling #1. You will need to loosen the small horizontal bolt with the long nut on the distributor clamp to adjust this. This will get you close enough to statically check and/or make it run!
The John Muir Idiot Manual says (for your year with EFI) the mark on the pulley ring is for TDC and its set to 7.5* BTDC with "Carbon canister hose disconnected at air cleaner. Strobe timing, at idle with vacuum hoses (vac adv/retard?) installed." Not sure of your exact setup though.

I hope this helps!

-Levi

[Timas]

Hey Levi-
Thank you for the options in trying to figure out what is going on. I have put so much time into my bus and to not have it fire up is really bumming me out.
I have L-jet so is static timing possible?
I guess you need to be able to get the engine to run before you can use a timing light. So maybe you can.
I will post the results as soon as I can.
Thank you again

[Volksmeister]

Static timing should still be possible on L-jet.
I understand it won’t run yet since you have a fuel pump problem but getting the ignition timing correct should still be possible. A volt/ohm meter and a test light will be your best way to troubleshoot the pump.

-Levi

[Timas]

The pump turns on when I hard wire it directly from the battery. I am currently trying to figure out why I have no fuel pressure when I try and crank the motor.
I also did not see any fuel coming from the inlet for the pressure regulator??
Along the way, I also discovered this random black wire coming from the harness??
For the grand finale to this update, the motor just backfired and now the dash lights come on, but the motor refuses to turn over. Tah dah..,the end

[Timas]

Update: That black wire I was referring to in my last post is part of the old VW testing plug. 0 voltage with ignition on.
I have the plug intact still, which I guess is uncommon.

[Timas]

Update:
Morning all,
the backfire caused several hoses to pop off, hence a giant vacuum leak. This resulted in the engine not turning over. Got those hoses all reconnected, back to original issue.
Tomorrow morning I will go back to the tracking down my timing issue.
Levi/anyone else
I think I am really close to finding TDC based off the first initial suggestion (can't hear great, but I am really close to finding pulley position when hissing stops ) Can I use this position to re align the pulley with TDC ? Kind of a combo of suggestions?

[Timas]

Hello! I don't think you broke any rules at all.

I'm having a bit of a tough time following your explanation (sorry). I'm assuming the engine hasn't run and that where you say the spark is occurring is during static timing.

So rather than try and tell you exactly where you went wrong I have 3 mediate thoughts.
1) The engine is not actually at TDC on the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke.
2) The distributor to engine position (timing) is incorrect.
3) The fan pulley ring is not installed in the original orientation on the fan.

Here's what I think you should do (got kinda lengthy...):

1) Ensure TDC #1 cylinder on compression stroke: Loosen the #1 plug a few turns and rotate the engine clockwise until you feel/hear air leaking past the plug. Keep turning it until it stops hissing and you should be close to TDC. If the TDC notch on the pulley is at or near 0 then you're there.

If you are unsure about this and can't verify by determining piston position then do the following. You will need to remove fan and the long center bolt and washer that holds the fan pulley hub/adapter to the crankshaft. TDC crankshaft position for #1 cylinder is such that the keyway on the crankshaft that the steel fan hub/adapter slides over should be pointed to the left (90* counterclockwise from vertical). This, however, does not mean TDC on compression stroke. It could be the exhaust stroke.
So, pull off the 1/2 rocker cover and look at both valves for #1 cylinder. If the exhaust valve is open then you need to rotate the engine one full rotation until the keyway is pointing left again. Now both valves should be closed.

2)Check to see where the TDC/timing marks on the fan pulley are now. If it's wrong it'll be way off. someone (you?) may have put a mark at BDC (180* from TDC) on the pulley for adjusting valves. something to be aware of. You can always just start over with fresh marks that work for you.

3) Now the rotor on the distributor needs to point at the little notch on the rim of the distributor body or to whatever terminal on the distributor cap you are calling #1. You will need to loosen the small horizontal bolt with the long nut on the distributor clamp to adjust this. This will get you close enough to statically check and/or make it run!
The John Muir Idiot Manual says (for your year with EFI) the mark on the pulley ring is for TDC and its set to 7.5* BTDC with "Carbon canister hose disconnected at air cleaner. Strobe timing, at idle with vacuum hoses (vac adv/retard?) installed." Not sure of your exact setup though.

I hope this helps!

-Levi

[Volksmeister]

Yes, a combo of both should get you there.

If your original marks are correct, the TDC marks should be close to lined up when the "hissing" stops. That's not accurate enough for new marks though.
At that point (if you need new marks) you need some way to determine piston position. If you can't physically see the piston top through the plug hole then use my earlier mentioned method or maybe a plastic straw down through the plug hole to "feel" for TDC.

Sounds like you are sneaking up on it!

-Levi

[Timas]

I appreciate the encouragement n confirmation Levi.
I will probably just have to go with the "straw in the spark plug hole" method.. I am pretty sure I was beginning to hear phantom hissing towards the end yesterday.
Hopefully I get a chance to have some garage time tomorrow

[Timas]

UPDATE:
I am a little perplexed .
My intake on #1 wiggles, exhaust doesn't. Wiggle=closed=TDC on #1 right?
on this note, assuming what I wrote is correct.
This translates to:
Piston all the way up
Pushrod all the way down
no load on rocker arm/spring
Causes "wiggle"
Is this right?
Anyways, I got way off track.
My rotor is 180 out from the cylinder 1 mark on distributor case.
However, the new mark I had made, as well as the #1 intake wiggle leads me to believe that I am where I need to be.
How can the distributor body, #1 intake valve, (assumption) and spark be correct but the rotor is 180 out?

[Bruce.m]

When the piston is at TDC and exhaust is tight, you are on the exhaust stroke when the engine is emptying burnt fuel. Turning the engine 360 degrees gets the piston back at TDC but this time both rockers will wiggle since both valves are shut & its on the compression stroke, when the spark fires.

Since the distributor runs at half speed, each clock rotation of the rotor arm is two crank rotations. So the distributor mark being 180 degrees out, is because the crank is 360 degrees out.

[Timas]

Hey Bruce,
thank you for the straight forward explanation
I rotate 360 counterclockwise yeah? Since I am already past the intake stroke.
So once I get both rockers to wiggle, how would I use that to then static time my motor? My timing is so out of whack that my motor will not start to even think about using a timing light. Everything I have seen is for engines that run carbs, I have fuel injection .
I ask only because as soon as I try to start the engine, would that not immediately change from TDC. I do truly have to apologize, I have only done this once before and I think I just lucked out the first time.
As I have mentioned before, I know there are rules. If I need to post timing questions separately, please tell me and I will do so in whatever sub category I need to.

[Bruce.m]

After one full turn of the engine (either direction). The distributor rotor arm will point at the mark. You then need to check the ignition leads on the cap are in the right place (one next to rotor arm mark will be #1). The firing order is 1-4-3-2.

With the distributor in the ballpark, you can statically time it.

[Timas]

Gotcha Bruce.
I appreciate the clarification on that.