Vanagon injector flow rates

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Thu Oct 04, 2001 7:27 am

Hi
Can anyone tell me the flow rate of Vanagon injectors # 0280 150 206?
Regards Steve C

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Thu Oct 04, 2001 11:55 am

I'm sure they are recorded somewher in some manual...that I should probaly own. Easy to check. Get a graduated jar/beaker. Get an old injector plug. Wire it up. Some injectors use reduced voltage from 12 volts. You might have to buy 1 50 cent potentiometer to reduce this...Or just be quick. Hook a length of fuel line to the "T" fitting on your fuel main ring. Jumper your fuel pump to run constant...bleed the air out of the line. Put the injector in the jar...hit the juice...time it for a measured amount of time...15, 30, or 60 seconds...till it gets to a readable mark. Make it an even #...so you can do the simple math. This will be a good comparison for getting different injectors that are close to the same flow rate. Bear in mind that some have pintle angles that are designed to operate at higher or lower pressures...to give the proper pattern of atomisation. Injection duration is the main method within a system of adding extra fuel. Ray

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:52 am

Hi Ray
Thanks for that info but I dont have any standard Vanagon injectors at the monent. I should explain, Im running a turbo Vanagon motor in my bug and Im using VW TLE injectors (supposed to be 410cc) that have turned out to be to small, maxed out a 70% on 9psi boost, I was told by very relaible sources that they would be flow enough. I was hoping to get a flow rate on the stock Vanagon injectors and do a little math to come up with the size injector I need.
Regards Steve C

Post by **Tom Notch** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:38 am

I have a link on my EFI/T1 page that lists darn near all the injectors used. They are listed in ascending order and covers every major brand that I know of. Here's the link
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0102/P_1/article.html

Have fun

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:46 pm

Interesting...so they maxed out at 70% of the rated 410cc? At what pressure was this? And almost as importantly...what pump delivery volume over the interval you timed them? Delivery rating of a given injector will be only true at a contant pressure and supply volume. Also remember this...in a turbo vehicle...you are injecting from pressure (fuel supply) into pressure (boosted manifold) fuel will not deliver as easily into a manifold with pressure over one atmosphere. Ray

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:17 am

Hi

The 410 cc figue was wrong. Im running 42 psi at idle and 48 psi on boost. Im using a Bosch pump from a local turbo car a Holden (GM) Commodore VL that came with a turbo 3 litre Nissan engine. Tom, that page is useful but they dont list the injectors I have. I didnt time them I went from information given to me (1st mistake) I just wanted to get the factory figues and go from there. I have some Mercedes injectors (0280 150 036) that flow 380 cc, this is from a relaible source, Autospeed, the one Tom suggested. I have to get the car re dynoed so I dont want to get it wrong again.

Regards Steve C

marco the steem engine · Sun Oct 14, 2001 8:04 am

Hi steve
I experemented with fuel preasures on the rolling road and found that at 55psi the engine made more power than at 43psi Keeping the RPM and A/F ratio the same on both runs, 7bhp more at the wheels with 55psi! this must be due to the atomisation at 55psi was better suted to the intake lenght of my engine.
What injector timing did they max out on(8.00ms,9.00ms,10.00ms)?

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 5:57 pm

Hi steve!...Just a question? Why are you sure that the injectors have maxed out? How are you gathering that data? The fuel volume is directly proportional to how long the injector stays open. What are you doing to modify your injection/ pulse dwell time? While its true that taking an existing system set up for a smaller engine and putting it into a larger engine usually means increasing the flow of fuel, unless you have doubled your engine volume...it sounds like you are having an enrichment pulse problem. Perhaps you need an extra injector...or an extra pulse generator...for your existing injector...just for enrichment. These are actually quite common. Injectors are not actually the most active link in the fuel metering chain. They are simply a valve with a constant size orifice. The amount of time at a given pressure ..that they remain open is the most important aspect. Also be sure of the injector pattern at max. pressure. The pintels of all injectors (even disc type) are set to run in a specific range. Running at too high will revert to stream instead of spray....and run you lean due to poor atomization. This will masqurade as running rich...black plugs...fuel in the exhaust etc., but will cause detonation. Most of the fuel is in liquid form and unignitable in the time alloted. Too low a fuel pressure will revert to bug ugly droplets...again poor atomaisation...and wet valves. The fuel pressure reguator is a PIECE of the metering system. Though the rate rises with vacume loss (open throttle) this is an incomplete form of enrichment...if the injector does not stay open long enough for the higher pressure to give you higher volume. Injection duration ...and injection timing will be the two biggest issues I would bet. Another important question...what resistance level are the solenoids of your injectors running? They must be in the same range as what your system was designed for...or else they will only give a fraction of the injector open duration that they are supposed to, and will rarely inject at the proper timing as the rpm increases. Injector flow rates are not that big of a worry normally for setting up fuel mixtures.Even on a turbo. As long as they flow more per minute than the car can use. Its all about time open ..mutiplied by pressure. Ray

Post by **Tom Notch** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:25 pm

I run the 036 injectors in both my engines. They will support close to 300 hp staying under 10ms and around 40psi. Plus I have no trouble at idle rpm, they work fine for me and my Haltech.

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

Steve C · Post by **Steve C** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:36 am

Hi All
My thanks to all who have answered. Im using Autronic SMC and while the car was being dynoed the operator checked the state of the injectors via the Autronic system and found them to be at 70%. He felt that they get unrelaible after that point, so it looks like the 036 injectors will do the trick. Im reluctant to use much higher pressures as Marco suggested because of the higher risk of a fuel leaks once the pressures get to high.
Regards Steve C

Post by **Tom Notch** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:52 am

Haltech warns against running above 85% at full power. Any additional flow required for the accel function, warm up, heat enrichment, etc can max out the head room and lean out your mixture. 70% would be ok but not much room for expansion. But you knew that

.

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:44 pm

Tom, I'm assuming from the posts that Haltech is refering to 70% of the max cycle rate of the injectors? Electronically that would be the only way I can see that they would be able to assign a numerical value to the flow rate of the injectors...and that would only be able to be done at a fixed pressure...unless they have a pressure transducer to overlay the fuel pressure rising rate curve over the cyclic rate curve. I would percieve that an o2 sensor would not really be able to accurately give you that percentage because it is reading oxygen content that could be there simply due to advance curve changes, cam profile or exhaust scavenging/valve overlap at various rpms. These are some of the reasons I was wondering how you were ascertaining that the injectors were maxed out. You would need to see the curves super-imposed. Running at 85% of cyclic rate on an injector is little cause for alarm unless you are running near the top end of its designed pressure range...where needle re-seating accuracy does indeed become a problem. Any insight would be welcome! Ray

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 9:51 am

70%? That's rubbish. Everything I've seen says that when you reach a duty cycle of 85% or so (EXTENDED use), it's time to go larger on injectors. I wouldn't even sweat 90% for short bursts.

The problem is that at duty cycles over this, the injector windings overheat, and fuel flow becomes not as controlled (non linear), throwing off your "calibration", until they cool off again.

Post by **Tom Notch** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 11:09 am

Duty cycle is derived from several things, the one which is the most important is how long your ecu can hold open an injector. 1st thing you need to know is how long a time at max rpm you plan on running your system that it will hold open an injector. My stuff is electronically limited to a maximum of 7.5 ms at 8k rpm. So I have to make sure that I get the correct flow quantity in less than 6.38 ms. Typically on My engines, the actual open time is about less than 5 ms at max enrichment, max rpm(around 7500 on my 2161). This leaves me a huge head room and lots of room for power improvements.

Somewhere in your instructions for you aftermarket ecu this should be covered. For my Haltech F9 they give me a formula
(120,000 X IgnDivideBy)/(max rpm X No. of Cyl.) If my injectors can't suppply enough fuel (by estimated HP) then it would be back to the drawing board for the fuel system.

Haltech also says "for a general rule of thumb, don't run injectors at more than 85% duty cycle". So this is why huge injectors are available and why staged injectors are required in some instances.

Yes, the Haltech software will display both ms and duty cycle or you can pick between the two on the real time data page that is diplaying the current fuel map that you are working/observing.

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

[This message has been edited by Tom Notch (edited 10-17-2001).]

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:19 am

Cool!. Do you have a duty cycle connection at the harness...or is itb part of software for p.c.? A lot of lambda boxes had output for duty cycle in the engine compartment. My Saab 900 is this way. I set my fuel mix with aduty cycle meter...and also check efficiency of the 02 sensor and enrichment systems this way. But then the box is calibrated to this motor. I would guess you would have just alittle more work to do with a non-engine specific aftermarket system. Oddly enough the lambda box on the saab has an 0 280 prefix in the #...very common to vw and Audi. Thanks for the answer! Ray