412 Wagon decisions

paulcarlson · Post by **paulcarlson** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:03 pm

Hello all,

Just discovered this forum after lurking around type4.org and its accompanying list for almost a year. I saw a beautifully restored Type 4 wagon (squareback?) at a show last July, and I've been interested ever since.

I have enjoyed the posts over the last several days regarding which 411/412 to buy, and what problems to look for when shopping. Very insightful, sounds like a lot of experience lurking in this forum.

Are there special problems inherent to the wagons? (Rust, tranny, whatever you can think of...) Which areas of the body should I pay attention to when looking at a 412 wagon?

My problem (or perhaps the thing that might protect me from a money pit) is the distance that I live from where most of these cars are for sale (I'm in the northern midwest). A car that *is* nearby has the engine out, but the body appears mostly solid. If I make the trip to see it I should be a little more educated on what to look for. Other caveats with this particular 412 wagon is that the engine is out (needs pistons at least) and has been sitting a long time.

The other car I'm interested in is *much* farther away, but has been driven regularly in the past few years, and has had much more care, recent engine work, still has the fuel injection, and from the photos looks somewhat better (rust-wise) than the local car for sale. But it would be difficult to see in person without making the trip with "intent to buy."

The decision: spend less now, drag the local 412 home and have a big project, or spend more now, travel a long distance to bring home a car that runs and will need (theoretically) less work (I have enjoyed reading about Ray's suspension improvements!).

Instinct tells me the car that runs is the one to get, but I would need to wait longer to scrounge up the funds.

Reasons I'm interested are mainly a second car, for in-town use. I live too close to work to justify driving, but our family is just getting into "taxi" mode...who takes which kid to which event, with which vehicle...and what kid wouldn't be proud to arrive at baseball in a later air-cooled VW? Hmmm.

Any way, many thanks in advance. I look forward to your thoughts.

Best regards,

Paul

alsehendo · Post by **alsehendo** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:58 pm

If you look at thesamba.com there is a project for sale in Wisconsin. I don't know anything about it but its a project at givaway price. I would get it for parts but I have 2 buses, a Bug, a Ghia, and a 412 already and just have nowere to put it.

Upper midwest is big area were are you at?

paulcarlson · Post by **paulcarlson** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:05 pm

I must have cheese on my breath.

I'm in Wisconsin Rapids. I actually got photos of the car today, so I'm looking them over. The rust really doesn't look outrageous, I should just go over and look at it in person.

If I'm new at this, would that be too much project to take on? The ad says "needs pistons." Would I actually be in for an engine overhaul? It's been sitting. Most parts are there, engine's apart right now.

--pc

metropoj · Post by **metropoj** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:45 am

"Needs Pistons" Heh, how did they determine that ?!?

Could be valves, etc .... Count on the worst then you won't be disappointed .... Injection still on the car ???

Rust on these cars cannot be determined from pictures. Read through some posts here. Ray Greenwood seems to be the man who knows these the best and he's posted a lot of great helpful info .....

These cars were known to rust, look hard and bring a big screw driver for poking ... Bid low, really really low. Chances are the owner gave up on it becasue parts are scarce and rust can be rampid ....

alsehendo · Post by **alsehendo** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:58 pm

If it popped a hole in the top of the piston odds are it dropped a valve seat. I can give you a piston if you need one. Send the heads of to Rimco for valve grind, they will tell you if the seats are ok and will repair if necessary. Offer the dude 250 to see if he bites. I know there isn?t much demand for these around here. I know he was going to restore this car at one time for he contacted me about a piston. Rebuilding the engine is probably the easiest thing to do on this car. You do need to be a home mechanic however or you will probably spend too much to get it up to par. If your missing the FI check to see if the original fuel pump is there. After market carb pumps can?t be used with FI. An L-Jet of an aircooled Vanagon 80-83 will work fine and can be found in bone yards. Don?t need to hotrod this engine it is plenty for this small car. I got my 412 for 500 but the body was pretty much flawless and the engine and tranny were in it. All it needed was FI for there had been an engine fire.

Let me know if you get it I?m down in Madison but cruse by there all the time I have a home in the UP in Michigan. I would love to see another Cheese Head 412.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:20 am

It sounds like bothcars have merits. The one that drove will probably have less rust. Pistons....or any other mechanical problems will me an a complete rebuild. Type 4 parts are too expensive and soemtimes hard to find to be doing partials with the engine out. Worn pistons mean a worn lower end (bearings....high milage). Adding new pistons and a valve job will usually spell the end of the lower end in a short amount of time. ALL stock cams are suspect. If its been driven normally in this car...and its just worn out pistons....a base rebuild with no real improvements can be done relatively cheap depending on the piston type. Perhaps undre $1000 if the only machine work needed is rebuilding bone stock heads.

The most common rust areas are the lower rear sills on the 4 doors, and the rear engine hood on the two and 4 doors, the front inside fender wells of the rear on all 3 models. All of these areas had noise dampening foam pumped into them. A small leak causes sheets of rust when the fam gets soaked. Before you start cutting or hacking....cust a smll access hole at the end of the heater channel under the rear fenders. You hook and crook to get out all the foam...them de-rust with muratic acid....down to metal. It may be better to actually weld a smaqll constellation of pinholes than to try and find clean properly shaped metal...and try to get a good fit in this very shapely area. Another commmon rust area is the rolled bead at the rear edge of the right front fender by the door. Its caused by the vent hose from the fuel tank leaking back along the inside of the fenfer and seeping through the undercoating and seal, causing a water leak.

The car that has not been driven will need every last part replaced on the front suspesion...trust me. In fact...chances are, most of the front end of the driver will need it to. Strut cartridges for this have not been manufactured in over a decade. Most people drive these thingsand put up with minor wiggles and wobbles. They pass it off as an old volkswagon characteristic. Its not true. These have no relation in driving charactteristics to anything else in the aircooled line of VW. They should be smooth and tight. Usually, even the driving condition cars eventually break something when you elast expect it....because no-one ever replaces anything. Justdo them both. If its to be a daily driver...it will need a good bit of work...but its not hideously expensive.....and not too time consuming either. The supension is a breeze to work on compared to types 1,2,3. Ray

paulcarlson · Post by **paulcarlson** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:06 am

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I'll be honest my mechanical ability is untested (read: newbie). I have good sources for help when I need it, but I would be smart to go for the one that's running now. I also kind of figured that suspension would be required on both, after reading some recent posts here..Thanks Ray. As far as the engine in the project car, I'm told the fuel injection is still with it...supposedly everything is there, but apart.

As far as another Cheesehead 412, I think it's inevitable. If I had $, time and space, I'd go for both! One to drive, one to work on. But then I'd need a really good marriage counselor too.

I'll let you know how things work out. By the way, what is the strange appeal that these cars have? I can't seem to shake it.

-Paul

metropoj · Post by **metropoj** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:30 am

Wish I could answer the obsession fo the 411/412's. For me it was all the technological innovations that Norfhoff and gang wanted to try and hang onto an old idea with things that were not available at the time. The Gas Heater that you can program with the dash clock blew my mind ! The feel is very good, good accelleration and power and felt like such a big plush car ....

As far as being good looking, the jury is out on that. It's a love hate with the looks for me, so ugly it's different which is cool !

Lastly, with seemingly everything been done to T1,2 and now starting on 3's, it's only a matter of time before the 4's become the next cult following. At under 500,000 produced, it's sure to eventually be a hit. Still a small market for tooling up new parts. What works for the 914 ( approx 114k built ) will not work for the 411/412's unfortunately.

alsehendo · Post by **alsehendo** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:31 am

I would get the running one also who knows what important parts may be missing that they don't tell you about or don't know about.

I would probably purchase it for parts if he cut the price in half. I don't like making offers like that anyway because it just pisses off a lot of people. Who knows the trany could be toast. There is a VW show in Madison/Middleton in the fall, Zimbrick VW on the beltline, you should bring it down if you get the good one. My 74 should be compleatly restored by that time.

The main thing I cant find for mine is the plastic insert that goes in the case at the fan. I do have the bellows that ataches it to the rear of the car used to suck clean cooler air. Actualy I don't realy know what it looks like, (old one burt to crisp) so seeing another would be helpfull, I could probbaly fab one from metal if I saw one.

One thing cool is there is mega room inside especialy for feet with the flat floors.

Good Luck

vwfreek · Post by **vwfreek** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:40 pm

paulcarlson wrote:I must have cheese on my breath. I'm in Wisconsin Rapids. I actually got photos of the car today, so I'm looking them over. The rust really doesn't look outrageous, I should just go over and look at it in person.

If I'm new at this, would that be too much project to take on? The ad says "needs pistons." Would I actually be in for an engine overhaul? It's been sitting. Most parts are there, engine's apart right now.

--pc

I also emailed the owner about this car. I'm going to be checking it out next week. So if you want it you better get there before I do.

I'll let you know what shape it's in if I don't get it.

paulcarlson · Post by **paulcarlson** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:05 pm

Cool, this is getting fun. Competition for a 412 in the Dairy State! If you get it Kenneth, it makes my decision much easier.

I'll send you the pics if you want them. Are either of you Wisconsin guys going to Iola this weekend?

--Paul

vwfreek · Post by **vwfreek** » Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:41 pm

I've got the pictures also. Didn't make it to Iola this weekend, but I saw a lot of the cars driving on the highway. I went out to the Twin Cities Sunday to pick up a 2.0 out of a 914. So now I've got the engine, I just need to find the right 412 to put it in.

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