Last two 73 Thing Transaxle parts

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:23 pm

After much work and hard core parts collection, I nearly have Herr K's transaxle completed. Ala Quaffe diff -- welded third adn fourth close ratio gears ala Weddle. All new clips, synchrom bearing, seals and even hocky stick. Bout as hard core as a T-! Thing trans can be...

Last Saturday we completed pressing the clusters together and thought we were home free. HA HA

The I II speed Selector fork is less that perfect so it will be replaced via Chris Weddle pn 113 311 551A

Upon attempting to install the front nose cone bearing ordered directly from VW we found it did not fit the shaft. So it has been returned and hence the question..

The original VW Thing part breakdown shows three different parts for the "ball bearing for main drive shaft"

113 311 123A F---183 2346 524
002 311 123A F183 2346 525--186 2007 503
091 311 123 F186 2007 504---

From this list I am thinking that VW sent me the first on the list which did not fit on my main shaft (bearing for early German Thing?)
I believe that the second choice is the correct bearing. Can anyone on this list confirm this so I can order the correct bearing from Weddle in the morning. Thanks. K-mann

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:20 pm

KUBE- I went to ask Eric DeBord to help in this matter but noticed that you have already done the same. As you know another excellent source of information is Paul Guard gears@gte.net I think. Perhaps you still have the address from a previous exchange.
Also I think Marc Vellat will know or have access to the #s breakdown. Seems strange that the three numbers correspond to the IRS bug-02 bus and 091 bus trans. respectfully. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:23 pm

The stock 73/74 Thing trans are loaded with Type II parts. Some of them even have 181 part numbers. I am working on a cross reference document as we speak. K-mann

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:13 pm

I never heard that before. This will be interesting. As you know my knowlege is most limited. I fall into the catagory of "anyone can shove an 091 into a thing". Keep us posted. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:28 pm

Although we are all aware of the fact that you can never "bullet proof" a TI t-axle and if you could it would be a 181 trans that would do it. Chris Weddle and more than a few others have lent a hand in the design of this current mania that I am about to pull together. As Alaska Bob stated anyone can shove a 091 in ( and that was my first intent) but it take a guy who has waited years to create a certain dream. Not so unlike Jake Raby, I am attempting to use as many stock parts as possible and create a unique piece of preengineered mastery. I am two parts from being home free. In this quest I have compiled some interesting data. Check out the parts breaddown (thise of you who own the RoMTOC CD and you will se acertain patern that has not been previosuly observed.. There is a good supple of 002 parts. Specifically the 69 bus.. When I drove my first Thing (my Dad's) he told me that "they" took their best parts and built the Thing. This was in response to inquiry after trying to get his new Thing stuck in the tide pools ouside fo Hermosa Beach and was unable.. I asked him, Whaht is this Thing.. Remember, I came home from the hospital in a 52 split window.. I still seek a source fo 5x130 offroad rims as part of my plan to crate a way to build a low cost killer offroad Thing.
But then I post first and think later.

K-mann

Chris181Westy · Post by **Chris181Westy** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:28 pm

K-Man, what ring and pinion and 1st and 2nd gearset are you going with?

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:24 pm

Good German Stock Parts

Ring and Pinion
4.12 8:33
pn 113 517 143R

1st gear
3.78
pn 002 311 251

2nd gear
2.06
pn 113 311 261A

K-mann

Bruce2 · Post by **Bruce2** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:09 am

Who started the myth that the Thing trans is the best/strongest trans ever made? Its not, its no different than any Beetle single side cover with the exception of the output flanges. Other than that they are identical. In fact, the 4.12 R&P found in a Thing trans is weaker than the 3.88 of a Bug trans. Anyone that wastes time searching for an AV Thing trans is a fool, there's nothing to gain.

K-mann, you say you have a 4.12 R&P. Which type do you have? There are 3 types, marked G833, K833, and O833. Did you know the German G and K R&Ps are inferior to the Australian O type? That's right, the O type is the best, followed by the K type, then lastly the G. The O type is rumoured to be found in some Type 181 transmissions, but don't bet the rent on it. Last winter I pulled a weak G type out of a Thing AV trans. You won't be able to find different part numbers for the 3 types of R&Ps because according to VW they are all interchangeable. The letter describes the type of machine used to make the R&P. Each machine generates a different tooth profile.

Now, regarding your ball bearing question. The first one on your list is the bearing for any early double side cover trans. This bearing will only fit on mainshafts with 10 teeth for first gear. The 10 tooth mainshafts (3.80) are only found in DSC transmissions. The 9 tooth first you are using (3.78) takes a bigger bearing, the same as was used in the 72-75 Bus 002 'box.
When you were taking the gear stacks apart, did you notice the thick 4th gear thrust washer that went on the mainshaft last? In 76 they realised that if they made the inner race of the mainshaft bearing wider, they could eliminate the thrust washer. So that last bearing is the one for 76 and later gearcarriers. You cannot just install the 76 and later bearing into an earlier SSC trans because there is required an oiling groove to feed this modified bearing. You would need this later gear carrier or you need to modify an earlier one by grinding a groove. This is clearly noted in the orange Bentley manual.

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:20 am

Bruce, Thanks for the info. I do not believe anyone here thinks the Thing Trans is the strongest ever made. Most of us are aware of the 091 bus box and others that are far stronger than the Thing box. My purpose in building this box as a strong as possible is to try and take the stock Thing parts asn take them to there natural limit of strengthand endurance. For the ammount I have spent on parts I could have bought a good 091 but that was not my intended purpose or goal. Again thanks for the information about the bearing inquestion. Your information agrees wiht three other sources that I have collected. K-mann

Kubelmann · Post by **Kubelmann** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:19 pm

Called Weddle and was told that all that is available in a FAG bearing is the 091 311 123A bus bearing. According to them the 002 311 123A bearing is only available from China (no thanks) Weddle agreed stating that the quality of the Chinese parts are far to variable to be worth trusting. They said they have used this bearing with no troubles you just need to eliminate the thrust washer as this bearing is wider as was stated earlier. Any thoughts about grinding the lube groove would be appreciated. K-mann

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:05 am

I have linked to a gearheads chart supplied by Kennedy Engineering courtesy of sandlizrd to fill in some of the gaps as far as which years had which parts and with which ratios.
http://sandlizrd.baja.com/gears.htm
I think this is a particularly good reference.
Also of use is Eric DeBords Transtalk-
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/9702/transtalk.html
Best of luck. Bob Ingman