T4/manual powertrain setup into T3

Class 11 streeter · Post by **Class 11 streeter** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:43 pm

Hey all
I'm posting this here as this forum looks the most knowledgable of 411/412 construction. Hope this forum isn't opposed to me cutting stuff out of a junked T4.......
I am picking up a 69 Square soon, almost have the keys, and I am already thinking of ways to modify it. Something that readily comes to mind is fitting a Type 4 engine.
raygreenwood favors using the 411/412 setup which does not seem to be a common practice. The common way of doing it, replicating the T1 or early Type 3 setup, are well documented on the Type4um. I am thinking that the factory mounting is not tried for this conversion often because it probably works well.

Anyway, the trans in "my" new Square is the manual, and I am thinking 412 Wagon as the parts donor as the local VW yard near me has one or two.
What would need to be taken out of a salvage yard T4 wagon to do this?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:35 pm

Hello! Finding a 4 speed type 4 wagon will be quite impossible, unless it was one of the few, rare gray market European wagons...or has been converted by someone. The only 4 speed wagon I have ever seen...was the one I converted. They only shipped 2 door fastback 411/412's to this continent.

But, on the offhand chance you find one with a 4 speed, the parts needed will be: The shifter, the shift gate, the shift rod, the shift rod coupling. The hydraulic slave cylinder for the tranny.

A couple things. The hydraulic slave...is almost non-existent for replacement or rebuild, but contact me and I can tell you how to very simply make a bushing for, install and adjust either a vanagon or audi 5000 cylinder which are both affordable and available. Since you will be using a car with a totally differnt pedal cluster than the type 4, just use a clutch master cylinder set-up kit from Niel....look in hot VW's. Or I can tell you how to adapt a vanagon master cylinder to the type 3. Its pretty simple.

The shift rod will probably not fit the car. But use the socket and graft to a custom or type 3 rod. Get all of the type 4 parts though, so you can understand and adjust the proper shift relationship.

The tranny itself. Bear in mind that short of the differenial bearings, the seals for the diff, and the mainshaft seal...ther are 100% "0" parts available for the 411/412 transmission....anywhere....on this planet.

But they run forever...if you take care of the few defects that high milage brings on. First, replace the ring and pinion bearings. Contact me when the time comes. I will help you adjust it. Have a new countershaft made. It should cost about $90. You will need to use a totally difernt but cheap needle bearing for this. Again, contact me.

If there is as of yet, no damage to the counter shaft 4th gear, and the spider gears...this should run for another 100k+...if set right NOW! These trannys require very few special tools.....if have a little help.

The tranny MUST be supported at the case partting line. If you support it by the tail cone...it will destroy itself in short order. This is beacuse of the way the main shaft runs. Its almost 4 feet long. Ray

Class 11 streeter · Post by **Class 11 streeter** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:52 pm

Geez Ray, you make it sound easier to cut the 412 body away and weld my Square body down in it's place.

Is that your way of saying there's no way to use the T3 trans with the T4 mounting setup?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:44 am

Maybe I'm just confoooosed. Wouldn't be the firts time today

. Do you want a type 4 4 speed in a type 3....or is it a type 3, 4 speed in a 412?
The shift linkage arangement, is not too bad, its just that the throws are totally different than any other vw. The stock floating linkage was a litle iffy. I'm working on correcting that on mine. Some sort of float has to be in the linkage due to the fact that the tail cone of the tranny floats about 1/8" all around.

The hanger bar for the engine/tranny mating joint should not be hard either. Probably a bit of welding, but thats it.

The clutch master arrangement is actually much simpler with a type 3, as you are not limited to what size , shape and type of clutch master you use by the 411/412 pedal cluster arrangement.

The really important issue is the condition of the tranny itself. These are really nice transaxles. They are light. They have a 3.79:1..or 3.91:1 final drive with a 1:1 4th. Not trying to discourage you...just so you know what you are getting into.

By the way, they take a one of a kind clutch disc. They are still available here and there. Buy a new one (rebuilt). I will sell you a couple of good cores. I have about a dozen. The splines and hub are totallydifferent. Ray

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:29 pm

I have been looking into fitting a 4 spped 411 box into a type three an have just about canned the idea. the shift input shaft would interfere with the torsion housiong and would need to go below the torsion bars. the side shafts would need to be of different lenghts as the gearbox i of set ( the automatic is also like this and have different length sideshafts.
BTW Ray did you look into the 69 411 shifting rod (same bush as a type one uses a rubber mount similar to a rype three (more solid) and shifts like a dream.
regards
Armand

Class 11 streeter · Post by **Class 11 streeter** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:09 pm

My evil plan is to put a Type 4 engine (probably a 914 motor) into a 69 T3 squareback using the T3 4 speed trans. The powertrain mounting idea was to see what the 411/412 uses and try to adapt or duplicate it.

I was looking all around the engine bay today and I realized the T3 looks more like a bus with it's own sort of moustache bar suspending the engine. There is nothing around the engine/transaxle mating area except the sheetmetal for the flooring so some buildup would have to be done to suspend the engine and trans. No big deal, I know buggy builders that can cut, bend, and weld any size square and round tubing to any shape I can afford, I just need a good design in the first place.

I may have to rethink this idea, but I really would like to see what the 411/412 uses to suspend the drivetrain. Holding engine/trans steady in the center and the ends having a small bit of wiggle/adjustment room sounds *much* more secure than suspending everything at either end.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:23 am

IMPI....The type 4 tranny is NOT offset by any means. It is dead center in the vehicle and uses equal length drive shafts. The 69 coupling used a totally different shift rod assembly. It also had problems with wearing the tailcone bushing out and was too restrictive of the minor amount of float that the tranny tailcone must have.

The automatic is also dead center. I have a set of shafts from one laying on my workbench now. If you found assymettrical shafts, its because someone installed them that way. The rear trailing arms are slotted and can move up to an inch laterally. The type 4 drive shafts are interchangable from side to side on all models.

To understand why the type 4 tranny is mounted/suspended the way it is...you must understand the powerflow inside of it. It is totally different.
The pinion shaf is driven from the tailcone end of the box...not the bell-housing end.

In this transmission, the actual drive shaft that is attached to the clutch...runs through the center of the mainshaft that carries all the gears. It ends in a splined hub inside of a massive ball bearing in the tail cone. That ball bearing hub is splined onto the rear end of the mainshaft...the other end of the mainshaft is pressed onto the pinion gear that drives the ring gear.

If the tranny is not suspended by the bell housing case parting line ONLY...it flexes the case....misaligning the long input shaft...wearing out the ball bearing...and casuing wear to the gears in the long pinion shaft.

So...a large crossbar over the place where the tranny bolts to the block is what is used. The tail cone has a bumper and is allowed to "float. The actual alignment fo the whole package is accomplished by the rear hanger bar of the engine. Its rubber bushings are also to be very lightly loaded...so the whole package is suspended by the center hanger bar...and balanced this way. Ray

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:05 pm

Hi Ray
We must have misunderstood each other. The whole type 4 drivetrain is mounted off center in the car (411) just measure the distance from the center of the gearbox to the out put flanges and you will see what I mean. Yes the type 4 drive shafts are of equal lenght but when the same tranny(almost) was used in the type 3 the factory went to different lenghts on the sideshafts ( something which drove me crazy when I converted a type 3 auto to manual) I like the type 4 tranny but have decided that the engineering needed to fit it into the Fstback is not worth it. You see in South africa the only IRS cars were 1969 type 3 autos
and some weird busses with a IRS box and reduction boxes tied together with telescopic drive shafts and universal instead of CV joints interestingly these also had small R&Pininos similar to that found in a dasher (same spider gears as the dasher.
Hope this clears it up
Armand

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:39 pm

Ah, yes...thats the automatic...but the 4 speed is symmetrical. The difference in the center to side in the 412 auto is fixed by the offset mounting of the rear bumper of the tranny, and the slotted mounts for the rear trailing arms. At least on this continent, the type 4 auto and manual used symmetrical drive shafts. Ray

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:14 pm

Hi must be my command of the english langauge (I am afrikaans speaking)
Tell you what measure your 411 body centerline and compare it with the crank centerline to see what I mean The whole drivetrain on a 411 sits off center in the car in order to have equal length sideshafts which are identical for 411 autos and manual cars unlike the type 3 which had equal lenghts for manual cars and different lenghts for autos
Hope this is clear now
Armand

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:44 pm

Nope...the bushing support is dead center on the rear frame member with the crank centerline. The type 4, 4 speed is symmetrical. The auto, may be off center...(but I highly doubt it...since I have converted several US spec autos to the manual with no adjustments necessary). I also swap sides and ends on the shaftsat 50k miles. If they were off center, they would be adjusted for....not by making offset shafts, but by the sliding rear hanger, the slotted center hanger and the slotted trailing arm mounts. Perhaps in your area, you have a different spec. It would not be the first time..and may explain why these adjustments are here. But, I have been working on type 4's for over 20 years....have worked on at least 100...and owned about 12 myself. They are symmetrical here. The trannys and shafts swap right over. Ray

IMPI · Post by **IMPI** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:20 pm

I personally rechecked both type 4 trannies just now and whilst the input bush is in the center of the car the crank and gearbox centerline does not run through this on both the 411 auto and manual the whole Crank and Gearbox centerline is not the same as the centerline of the car and this was done in order to ensure that EQUAL LENGTH sideshafts can be used.
whilst I cannot claim to have had so many type fours I did a ground up resto with a turbo last year an have owned 3 411 station wagons. The type one gearbox input and crank cenerline is on a straight line. and this was the problem I encountered when thinking about a type 4 tranny in my fastback (type 3)

Please Just check the centers with an open mind Ray
Armand

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:17 pm

I think we are saying the same thing. The gearbox input shaft (clutch end) is dead center. It looks deceiving because of the lump or "cranked area on the outside of the differential case. Thats the ring gear. You have a long stub shaft and a short one internally. The mainshaft is essentially the pinion shaft in the 4 speed.
The top center support is exactly equidistant from bushing to bushing.
The tranny is installed precisely on the centerline of the rear frame member.
What is installed off center is the engine. This is also why there is actually a lot to properly aligning an engine and drive train package in a type 4.

If you base the straightness of an engine install in a type 4, off the body appearance....you will need to use different length shaft...maybe 15mm....and then will have to readjust both trailing arm positions and have proper front to back wheel thrust re-established.

You will see the misalignment at the flange for the rear nose cone bushing to frame member alignment. It will also throw off the shifter alignment. Again...this car was designed to have symmetrical drive shafts. It has four seperate adjustments that must be done when aligning an engine. They are only in one book and poorly represented...it was either clymer or Chiltons. If you don't do the adjustments, I could easily see someone having to install assymetrical shafts. Ray