Inner Tierod End?? Straight or angled?

[vwbill]

Ok, back to a question Ray has answered but I cant get any consensus.
Should you replace the angled inner tierod end with the replacement end that is straight? Some people say it will not work and will change the alignment specs. Some say you wont be able to get the end to attach to the center link. Others say it might bind or rub. Then some say it shouldnt matter. Is there a difference on a wagen and a sedan? Should I just put a new boot on and drill and put in a grease fitting(will it hit the frame)? Thanks again, Bill

[raygreenwood]

Tie rod ends have no bearing on alignment specs really. As long as there is no binding anywhere in the turning radius...a tie rod end is a tie rod end. If they are shorter at the same setting...screw them out some. This is what the alignment is for. They are the same length as the type 3 inners. You have about 1.5" of adjustment. I have used them for years straight...no prob.Ray

[vwbill]

Hi Ray, thanks for the reply! I was looking at a past forum and you said the center link is still available and the number was TRW DS 858. I cant seem to find it listed as available. Can you use any other year? What will happen if all I can replace is the tierod ends and the ball joints and strut carts. Will the center link just trash all the work and what about the idler arm and steering arm? Thanks again for all the help! Bill

Hey Ray, was reading past post and it sounds like if you do the ball joints and tierod ends and dont do the center link it will trash them. It also sounded like you need to do the idler arm and pitman arm bushings or you will trash the center link. I think this front end is a big mission!! It sounds like to do some of the bushings is crazy work like that grommet one on the arm with the ears! What is a reasonable front end? Am I just putting a bandaid on a hole in the suspension with doing the ends and ball joints and struts? It sounds like beyond my scope? How did that guy on Tuna's site get his on a race track? Did he replace the front end or just handle the wobbles and play or did he replace it with another cars setup?
Thanks and confused again! Bill

[raygreenwood]

Sorry, tried to post this earlier. You need to just re-do the wole front end. Trust me. It will only take about 4 hours. Its about 10 times simpler than a type 1,2,3. But, you need to do it now..because parts are getting scarcer. If you do this partially and parts wear out ..say 3 years from now...its going to be a problem.

The center link will only be available through a licensed TRW dealer. No-one else can get it. But, you can actually rebuild the old one for cheap...and make it better than stock...and it will never wear out. Contact me on PM. I will tell you how. The center-links on ALL type 4's are shot. You cannot tell this unless you remove it...or it gets hideously bad. It causes the wobbles. That and the idler bushing. The late (79) super had a factory bronze replacement bushing avaialble. The late super bushing was the same part # as the 411/412. The original rubber one was too weak.

If the control arm bushings are not too bad...just leave them. If they have slid forward on their metal bushing tubes....pry them back and put spacers on each end to keep the control arms centered. By may, I will probably have cast urethane ones to offer. If you cannot find the bronze bushing, for about the sam cost, you can take a bonded one down to a machine shop and have it copied in bronze.

The ball joints need to have grease fittings added. You will also need to make gaskets for the balljoint top-to steering knuckle face and the upper steering knuckles face to strut body. I can probably send you some, I cut my own.

I may also be able to find you some centering rings and radius arm bushings.

From the photos, he probably did not do too much, the body roll in the photos was huge and the car still had that nasty nose high thing going on. The 411/412 handles well....as in stuck to the road....but had huge body roll. Hopefully soon I may have a digitalcamera, and then I can start dropping insome pics of how to do this stuff. But this is all simple once you get the parts. Ray

[Jan Peter de geus]

This is what Neal told me about his race track 412:

"To lower the front of my car I had a pair of lowered and uprated springs made. I took one of the original springs to a custom shop and asked them to make a new pair 3" lower than the original. This did not cost very much, about GBP 75 (four years ago).

I have used original shock absorbers on the front. I have also had a front strut brace custom made to connect the two strut tops to reduce body role.

At the rear I fitted standard Boge variant shock absorbers as these are stiffer than the sedan ones. I did not change the springs.

There was a full feature on my car in the December 2001 issue of VolksWorld."

Jan Peter

[vwbill]

I've sent a email to try and get the Dec. 2001 issue of VolksWorld.
Do you have any copies of the article you could post? Thanks for the reply! It was great to see a 412 on the track! Wahoo...! Thx, Bill

[raygreenwood]

Unfortunately, making a shorter spring does nothing to actually lower the car properly. The spring has nothing to do with the length of the strut. It...the spring...is clamped bewteen the lower perch and the upper plate. That distance is dictated by the length of the rod. . The spring is what keeps the rod at full extension all of the time. Though the shorter spring may help to let the front end drop farther on bumps...it will still fully extend the rods...giving that nasty nose high attitude. Think about it. The only way with a stock strut cartridge on a 411 , that you can use a shorter spring AND actually lower the front end, is to shorten the steel busing in the bumpstop...to allow the step to ride up higher to the plate. Since the rod is already at full extension...the plate will have to come down to meet the shortened bushing. Since it is capped by the strut mount...that comes down with it. Since the body is bolted to the strut mount...the body comes down with it...hence lowering the car. But...the rod will now stick out the top farther. You have less than 3/4" to play with until they hit the hood. When you hit a bump and compress the bushings... you will hit the hood. I have the dents on an old hood to prove it. I've been there before. It is not the way to go.

The springs on the 411/412 are way more powerful than the car needs. They are excellent. Do not screw with them They are larger than the springs on many front engined cars. The flaw is that they over power the rebound damping. You hit a hole in the road..the front end dips...decently controlled...and then flys upward at twice the rate...poor control. Shortening the spring would have helped with that...but the real answer is a strut rod that is shorter. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, what is the deal with all the low rider and monster garage guys and when they take a torch to the springs? Does that work or just trash the spring? I think my bump stop didnt have a bushing in it. I have the inch one on top of the plate under the mount? Bill

[raygreenwood]

It just trashes the springs. Springsare very precisely made and tempered. If you have a 1" bushing on TOP of the plate between the top plate and the strut bearing...your struts have been assembled wrong.That loads the spring too heavily. Some people use that as a quicktensioner to take up for poor strut cartridges. It works..but eventually wrecks the struts even worse due to the exessive rebound. The 1" long bushing goes in the center of the bump stop under the top plate. There is also a chance that the PO used an early long top "pin" 411 strut cartridge and needed anextra spacer to take up the slack. I would bet that there is also a spacer in the center of the bump stop.....or else it would slip down the shaft.

THe factory Boge rear shocks are OK...but short lived. The KYB gas that were designed for the varient are the stiffest.

I have only really found one way to correctly lower the front end of the 411/412. Find a properly valved , shorter shaft cartridge and make the mods to install it. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, just checked the struts and I have from top a nut, concaved dished seat that meets the steel bushing that rest on the bearing in the mount then a 1" spacer, top spring plate, rubber bumper stop with the same inside dia. as the original strut rod. I measured the original strut rod at the compressed(down) state from the seal to the taper(cut down to nut size) on the shaft and it was 2-3/16" and from the taper to top was 2-1/2". I was using a sleeve in the bumper with the NOS cart. because it has a smaller shaft size. So I shouldnt go by the original setup on my struts. I should take that spacer out? Then I wont know the total size I'm trying to get too?! Do you know what the measurement should be from plate to plate? I have been going by all the measurements I toke from the strut assembly to try and get to that number less 1/2"-3/4". Arrrgggg! Thanks Bill
p.s. Hey Ray, I was looking at my Parts illustrated catalogue 1990 for the 411/412 and it shows a spacer in one of the exploded views, it has two for the strut? I'll try and copy it and email it to you.

[Guest]

Bill, I do not have that issue of Volksworld, neither do I have a copy. Maybe there is someone around, visiting the forum, who does and wants to scan and post it? I would be interested myself. Jan Peter

[raygreenwood]

In most 411/412 aftermarket cartridge kits, there was a spacer that slipped over the rod step....same outer diameter as the shaft...that set up the difference between 411/ and 412. But..That spacer bears into the bottom of the spacer inside of the bump stop. You can lose the bump stop...but the spacer in the end of it...which is a stepped looking spacer...must remain. The spacer between the top plate and the strutbushing shouls be only thick enough to give about 1/16" gap between the skirt of the strut bushing and the top plate. So ifyou have a late 412 with the assymetrical strut mount...yes...there will either be a bushing or a stack ofwashers between the top of the plate and the mount...but only enough to produce a 1/16" gap. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, thanks for the reply! You the man! I just checked with the parts house and they found the TRW DS858 centerlink, yeah!! They had only two left so I ordered both. It was 82.99 plus tax. I also order the Fox mount to see if the will work with my crazy setup. I actually think my car is a early 74 just because of the engine data matches that and the tag under the rear seat said 73, but I dont know! Well let you know if I get the center links. Now on to the idler arm and control arm and........,lol!
Thanks for all the help!! Bill
p.s. The parts catalog with illustrations I got off ebay from vw-euro(Olivier French) is nice to see the exploded view; it doesnt have names for the parts but he said he's trying to get that.

[raygreenwood]

Actually, the fox mount will not work...just the bushing and the bearing cup. They are separate parts. The fox mount is a two bolt I think. Also late super-beetle is the same mount (3-bolt assmetrical) and the same bushing and cup.
It will sound ugly, but if you want the stock DS-858 to last and not wear out, there isa mod that needs to be done. When you get it out of the box...look closely at it. What you will see....is a pin with theaded top sticking out of each end. Like a tie-rod end, those pins "wedge" into their taperd holes in the idler arm and the pitman arm. The pin rotates in its cup. Therin lies the problem.

The cup...is nylon. Very bad material when it gets wet. It has a nylon collar sticking up. That nylon collar comes up against the bottom of each arm. It is a weather seal. The problem is...that it cracks and leaks. The other problem is that every pitman arm and idler arm are slightly different. The pin sinks to a gretaer or lesser depth. It starts to crush the nylon collar onthe outside...which cracks itloose from the nylon cup on the inside. Then...add a little rust...and a little wallowing out...and the pin starts to pry back and forth, cracking the cup/bushing on the inside. The higher the handling level on the front end....the faster this happens. ie: better tires, stiffer struts etc. My last new center linkdies in 15K miles....no kidding.

Heres how to fix it...when its new...before you drive on it.

(1) with a razor blade...trim away the outer nylon collar cleanly.
(2) with the idler arm out of the car...bolt the pin into the arm. Measure the gap left between the top of the center link, next to the pin, and the idler arm. This is where the nylon used tobe, that you just cut away.
(3) armed with this measurement, make a stack of forged or very stiff washers that fitreasonably close around the pin, that are the EXACT distance between these two parts.
(4) disassemble and stack them in there. Reassemble and install.

The washers should be sealed with high temp silicone (permatex copper)..after you grease them lightly next to the pin on the inside.
The washers act as a metal spacer bushing so no lateral movement or "jacking" can happen to the pin...and therefore not distort the inner cup. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, thanks for the reply! I just received the control arm and just want to reconfirm the modification info. The ends have a clear boot(looks like maybe its made of urethane) that slides down over the interior white sleeve, that sleeve extends just a litte above the boot maybe a 1/16". Do I modify the clear dust boot or just the interior white sleeve bushing?
Thx, Bill