Bob I. some questions on your Thing

jthw8 · Post by **jthw8** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:54 am

Bob,
I know you have put at T4 in your Thing. Somewhere I saw some pictures of your install but I cant find them anymore. I think I just got a 1800 for the Thing 1 mutant and just wanted to get some info and see better pics of your install if you have them.

I rememeber that you said the only reason it fit without an upright conversion is because of your body lift and the engine hanging below the body. How close is it? Im kinda trying to figure out how much space I would need to create to have it fit under the body without going to an upright conversion. Since Im doing major surgury on the rear (having to replace the whole clip due to an accident) Im considering stretching it a bit when I put it back together. Certainly the harder way of doing it but Im just considering it as something different.

Thanks
Jim

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:50 am

Jim actually I have not posted photos of the install. The gallery here and the site gallery both show photos of the engine compartment with the cover up. That gives a fairly good view of the room you will need to create.
You are correct in that I had deducted that the body lift would be key to the fitting of the externally larger dimentioned engine. I`m not saying that it cannot be done otherwise. I`m sure that it can. Take a look at Gary Cookseys bobtail thing(I`ll bump the chopped and lowered thread up for you look at the yellow Baja Thing at the bottom of the page put up by me on the link). If I were not going to install the lift I would be very tempted to Baja the rear in this manner.
My attitude was " I`m going to get this baby in there no matter what". I had just removed and sold an uprighted T-4 engine and did not want to go back to a bug engine. I had a bus engine that I had purchased for my van and decided to install that w/stock cooling. Since this time I have found and purchased a built 2.0L 914 based engine and will be installing it(again stock cooling) soon. The beauty is that once you get this done there are always good strong bus(and 914) engines available. So from then on an engine change is really no different from a bug engine.
If you retain the Thing transaxle (which is plenty strong) you will need to have your flywheel bushed to accept the shorter T-1 input shaft. A rear hanger is advised. Just retain the mustache bar on the engine and tie into it from the bumper mount. Very simple to do. The T-4 engine has enough torque to twist the framehorns of type one vehicles if not braced.
Keep us posted in your plans. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

jthw8 · Post by **jthw8** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:08 pm

Thanks Bob, I went throught the galleries and found the photos of your car, that is what I was thinking of.

Seeing as Thing 1 came to me minus all drivetrain I may just go with a bus trans for ease of use.

Definitely planning on a rear mount of some sort.

Still have to see if this motor comes though and then I can let the rest of the planning begin, until then I still have ALOT of body work to do to prepare for the engine.

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:02 pm

I think you`re on the right track with the bus transaxle. The gearing is better if using larger diameter rear tires or for any off-roading. Its also stronger than a stock T-1 transaxle. Doing that I would reccomend using longer wider rear trailing arms, then the bus trans/bus axles will all go in as a unit. Look for a 72-later bus trans or use a 68-71 w/ later inputshaft installed. No need to modify the flywheel. Only caution is to insure that if using the 091(76-later) bellhousing the starter will have to be the same.
You can use the 17/1800 flywheel with the 091 bell but not the other way around. The 228mm pressure plate will not fit the 02 bellhousing(designed for the 210/215mm units) without a lot of clearancing. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Mattt · Post by **Mattt** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:48 am

Bob Ingman wrote:I think you`re on the right track with the bus transaxle. The gearing is better if using larger diameter rear tires or for any off-roading. Its also stronger than a stock T-1 transaxle. Doing that I would reccomend using longer wider rear trailing arms, then the bus trans/bus axles will all go in as a unit. Look for a 72-later bus trans or use a 68-71 w/ later inputshaft installed. No need to modify the flywheel. Only caution is to insure that if using the 091(76-later) bellhousing the starter will have to be the same.
You can use the 17/1800 flywheel with the 091 bell but not the other way around. The 228mm pressure plate will not fit the 02 bellhousing(designed for the 210/215mm units) without a lot of clearancing. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Bob, if you using an 091 and you dont want to convert to 091 starter, cant you swap the 091 bellhousing for an 002 bellhousing? I think the 002 bellhousing would fit on an 091 trans.

jthw8 · Post by **jthw8** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:12 am

Since Ive been doing some other research and trying to make sense of it all I should mention that the 1800 is from a 914 not a bus, I understand that makes a difference as far as trans selection and mounting.

Great info so far, keep it coming

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:15 am

Jim the 914 engine is no different in the regards you mention. The only difference that comes to mind in that respect is that the 914 flywheel must be swapped for a bus unit of 210 or 215mms (if bug trans is used).
The case for the two engines is the same externally other than the early busses had a mechanical fuel pump and the 914s were all EFI. Two of the three engines for my thing are/were 914 based, the other T-2. Installation is the same with the exception of the flywheel swap.

Matt I thought that I had indicated that the bell has to match the flywheel but in reading back I do`nt see where I did.
Yes as you say putting the later bell on the 02 trans will allow the use of the later flywheel or vice versa. Just remember that in doing so the starter will need to be changed as well. Use whichever starter matches the bell originally and there is no confusion. Thats exactly as I have done for my newest install (2056 w/228 bus flywheel). The engine was from a 914 so I swapped to a bus flywheel. All VW 12V flywheels have the same number of teeth (130?) and have the same external diameter. The problem is in fitting the pressure plate into the bell. I have used a bug bell to bench start a 2.0L T-4 engine. However the PP had to be removed to fit it to the trans. Flywheel was fine. With the 914 flywheel the problem is in depth. The 901 trans reqiures about 3/8" more depth in the flywheel so that the TOB can properly engage the clutch. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Mattt · Post by **Mattt** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:18 am

i thought the cases were different from 914 to bus, dipstick location? Isnt the 914 a better case to start with because the dipstick location is more ideal for T1 use?

jthw8 · Post by **jthw8** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:23 am

Yes, thank you, it was the flywheel differences I wasnt entirely clear on. As for the FI, Im going to try to make it work, if not carbs are ok with me

Ive had good luck working with FI on busses and T3s and actually like the system on a stock motor.

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:33 am

Matt as far as the dipstick location is concerned the 914 case has it on top. As you say better for the T-1 conversion. But if you notice there is little difference when using the 914 oil filler as I did on mine. As far as installation is concerned there is no difference technically, just the flywheel.
I was updating my post as you guys were posting also. Its just about a chat session at this point. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Mattt · Post by **Mattt** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:37 am

Bob Ingman wrote:Jim the 914 engine is no different in the regards you mention. The only difference that comes to mind in that respect is that the 914 flywheel must be swapped for a bus unit of 210 or 215mms (if bug trans is used).
The case for the two engines is the same externally other than the early busses had a mechanical fuel pump and the 914s were all EFI. Two of the three engines for my thing are/were 914 based, the other T-2. Installation is the same with the exception of the flywheel swap.

Matt I thought that I had indicated that the bell has to match the flywheel but in reading back I do`nt see where I did.
Yes as you say putting the later bell on the 02 trans will allow the use of the later flywheel or vice versa. Just remember that in doing so the starter will need to be changed as well. Use whichever starter matches the bell originally and there is no confusion. Thats exactly as I have done for my newest install (2056 w/228 bus flywheel). The engine was from a 914 so I swapped to a bus flywheel. All VW 12V flywheels have the same number of teeth (130?) and have the same external diameter. The problem is in fitting the pressure plate into the bell. I have used a bug bell to bench start a 2.0L T-4 engine. However the PP had to be removed to fit it to the trans. Flywheel was fine. With the 914 flywheel the problem is in depth. The 901 trans reqiures about 3/8" more depth in the flywheel so that the TOB can properly engage the clutch. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

The reason I mentioned about using the 002 bellhousing on the 091 trans is because then you dont have to go buy the expensive 091 starter. If you stay with the smaller VW flywheel, and the standard starter, everything from your T1 engine will work. I have my OG Thing starter in my 002 Pyramid trans. If or when I drop the 091 in there, I will swap bellhousings so I can retain the same starter as Im currently using.

peterjager · Post by **peterjager** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:12 am

I know that if you use the stock tranny, and you use the 200mm flywheel that came on certain T4 busses it makes for a easier trans/engine conversion, we did a couple while i was in Germany few years ago.

As for the T4 fitting in with stock cooling, i remember a German buddy of mine doing it, with a few mods, now if i could only remember them?

I will try to contact him, and see what he can do for info.

Peter

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:25 am

Peter: unfortonately no T-4 powered busses were ever delivered to North America with 200mm flywheel/clutch comb. Even if they were it would still be a neccassity to bush the flywheel to accept the T-1 input shaft. But still the 210mm& 215mm work just fine in a bug trans. All VW 12V flywheels are of the same diameter. It is the 228mm pressure plate that is the problem in installing into a bug trans.
Matt: thats the same bell/starter comb ( thing starter/02 pyr bell) I am using right now. Best of luck. Bob Ingman

Bob Ingman · Post by **Bob Ingman** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:30 am

Jim there is another T-4 powered Thing that is for sale on thesamba.com right now. The photo shown the engine as installed. The engine is 914 as noted by the dipstick location, oil filler location and timing access.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... 0312406676
Best of luck. Bob Ingman

jthw8 · Post by **jthw8** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:13 am

Thanks, I would have never caught that. Interesting approach to the engine fitment. Similar to what I intend to do I think except I intend to move the entire rear section back not just the engine cover and lower plate so that at a glance it shouldnt be noticeable.

Still a long way to go and I have a @#$% hyundai taking up my space in the shop right now.

Shoptalkforums.com

Bob I. some questions on your Thing

Bob I. some questions on your Thing

Hi, see if you can still find a bus T4 200mm flywheel