My 74 412 is bone stock. I have the front fenders off for a little "rust-oration" and want to rebuild the front end. I have followed some of the threads, but some of it is way over my head. I have the motor done for the car.......just needs to be installed (finding the time) and I want the suspension straight so i can drive it with confidence.
Can anyone walk me through it, sort of like in a PERT chart fashion? I want to do things in a logical order...........
Front suspension help
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Alright....I think its about time to sit down and lay this out so everyone can get to it. I have gotten down to being able to rebuild or make better than stock...everything except ball joints...which I have a long term plan for...but too expensive right now. I also have layed out a really really easy method of dropping in a rabbit manual rack with only a very small amount of fabrication...outside the car. Its a bolt in. It gets rid of the stock steering box....which though nice....its seal is unobtanium. It also gets rid of the idler arm. It uses the stock idler arm bracket...and either another one just like it, or a super beetle bracket. If you havn't noticed...the steering box bracket bolt pattern and idler bracket pattern are mirror images of each other. This also gets rid of the center-link. I may need some help getting this together. I will drop some notes soon. The rebuild I have done on mine makes it handle un-believeably well. Ray
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backbay
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:59 pm
Rabbit Mods
Any link for this info yet? My front end finally died after 2 years of daily driving (stock factory parts) time to rework the whole thing, ready to get started and I have an 86 rabbit convert. parts car. Would be nice not to have go junkyarding (although I do enjoy it).
Not wanting to replace all the parts back to factory due to the problems. Would just ware out again, and that nose hight.
74 412
Not wanting to replace all the parts back to factory due to the problems. Would just ware out again, and that nose hight.
74 412
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
When you start working on a 411 or 412 front end, especially one that is worn out, you need to do everything. The parts cost is not that much. Start looking for ball joints right now. Those will be the hardest. The tie rod ends are type 1 and 3 parts. The #'s are in back posts...or I will repost them. Either find the 78-79 superbeetle idler bushing...or spend $45 bucks and have one machined from bronze. You need a solid bronze one. New strut bushings from a fox or a superbeetle (late assymetrical style). The radius arm centering rings, the donut bushings and the strut details I am trying to work out to make it simple for people ...right now. It will be a few weeks or so. At some point, I will either send this to someone who can post it....or just keep it together and e-mail it to whomever needs it.
If you have a rabbit set of struts, the easiest thing to do is take them apart. Grind/cut carefully, the lower spring seat off of the strut tube. Polish it smooth with a belt sander. Then belt sand the whole thing with about 360 grit to take the surface down a hair.
Now...first make sure that the rabbit/golf strut tube is of the variety whose diameter will allow it slide down into the 411/412 strut tube with a little tapping. There are several sizes. Use only the KYB GR-2 (low pressure) cartridges for and Audi 4000s or VW quantum (same cartridge). I went through hundreds to find the perfect valving. I'm not saying there are not others...just that I know tehse work and if you use high pressure gas...it will break things
Before that though, you want to measure an assembled stock strut...spring and all. The measurement you need is that distance between the top spring plate....and the bottom spring plate. Thats the extended distance. My car required 7/8" height reduction in the front end to make the front and rear level.(and I have very good condition rear springs with KYB high pressure gas in the rear). It should never take more than 1.25".
Once you have that measurement, slide the assembled rabbit strut tube (with new cartridges and top cap installed) into the 412 strut tube. Install the top spring plate (no spring yet), the spacers and the late assymetrical strut bushing assembly. Let the rabbit strut tube slide in or out until you reach the original measurement between the top and bottom spring plate. Make sure the top plate is sitting level. Then subtract 7/8"..or whatever you deem necessary by sliding the rabbit tube farther in. When this is perfect....make a hard scribe line on the rabbit tube at the top edge of the thread on the 412 tube so you can put it back in where it needs to be llater.
Remove the rabbit strut tube.
Place it next to the 412 tube and line up the scribe mark at the top edge of the thread on the 412 tube, where you had it when you made the scribe mark. Mark where the bottom of the rabbit strut tube comes to on the 412 tube.
Now....about 4" up from that....make a mark on the 412 tube. 4" down from the top edge...make a mark on the 412 tube. Get a drill with a 3/8" bit. At these two marks, you are going to drill 3 holes in each location...120* apart. At the next mark, move the first hole around a further 60*...so the holes top and bottom are not lined up with each other. Take the new strut cartridges out of the rabbit strut tube...so you don't damage them. Tap the rabbit strut tube down into the 412 tube to the scribe mark you made....with the top cap installed...so you dont damage the threads. Be exacting.
Now...either take it somewhere...or do it yourself, but through each of the six holes you drilled....weld a nice fat bead onto the rabbit tube inside. You have now permanently welded the new strut tube to the 412 tube in six positions. For more safety...if desired, you can weld around the top lip of the 412 tube...to the rabbit tube. This will be more than enough. Re-assemble with the new Gr-2 cartridges. You now have replaceable front cartridges.... you now have no more nose high attitude, have better static castor because of it....and have absolutely the most superb valving for handling on this car. I am trying to make some good drawings in my spare time...but that should get you started. Ray
If you have a rabbit set of struts, the easiest thing to do is take them apart. Grind/cut carefully, the lower spring seat off of the strut tube. Polish it smooth with a belt sander. Then belt sand the whole thing with about 360 grit to take the surface down a hair.
Now...first make sure that the rabbit/golf strut tube is of the variety whose diameter will allow it slide down into the 411/412 strut tube with a little tapping. There are several sizes. Use only the KYB GR-2 (low pressure) cartridges for and Audi 4000s or VW quantum (same cartridge). I went through hundreds to find the perfect valving. I'm not saying there are not others...just that I know tehse work and if you use high pressure gas...it will break things
Before that though, you want to measure an assembled stock strut...spring and all. The measurement you need is that distance between the top spring plate....and the bottom spring plate. Thats the extended distance. My car required 7/8" height reduction in the front end to make the front and rear level.(and I have very good condition rear springs with KYB high pressure gas in the rear). It should never take more than 1.25".
Once you have that measurement, slide the assembled rabbit strut tube (with new cartridges and top cap installed) into the 412 strut tube. Install the top spring plate (no spring yet), the spacers and the late assymetrical strut bushing assembly. Let the rabbit strut tube slide in or out until you reach the original measurement between the top and bottom spring plate. Make sure the top plate is sitting level. Then subtract 7/8"..or whatever you deem necessary by sliding the rabbit tube farther in. When this is perfect....make a hard scribe line on the rabbit tube at the top edge of the thread on the 412 tube so you can put it back in where it needs to be llater.
Remove the rabbit strut tube.
Place it next to the 412 tube and line up the scribe mark at the top edge of the thread on the 412 tube, where you had it when you made the scribe mark. Mark where the bottom of the rabbit strut tube comes to on the 412 tube.
Now....about 4" up from that....make a mark on the 412 tube. 4" down from the top edge...make a mark on the 412 tube. Get a drill with a 3/8" bit. At these two marks, you are going to drill 3 holes in each location...120* apart. At the next mark, move the first hole around a further 60*...so the holes top and bottom are not lined up with each other. Take the new strut cartridges out of the rabbit strut tube...so you don't damage them. Tap the rabbit strut tube down into the 412 tube to the scribe mark you made....with the top cap installed...so you dont damage the threads. Be exacting.
Now...either take it somewhere...or do it yourself, but through each of the six holes you drilled....weld a nice fat bead onto the rabbit tube inside. You have now permanently welded the new strut tube to the 412 tube in six positions. For more safety...if desired, you can weld around the top lip of the 412 tube...to the rabbit tube. This will be more than enough. Re-assemble with the new Gr-2 cartridges. You now have replaceable front cartridges.... you now have no more nose high attitude, have better static castor because of it....and have absolutely the most superb valving for handling on this car. I am trying to make some good drawings in my spare time...but that should get you started. Ray
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backbay
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:59 pm
Thanks for the reply, did not know it is basiclly the same procedure as the quantum/fox, figures about the same parts for the rabbit.
I have all the tools and equip needed, just never looked at the rabbit tubes.
This is the plan I am going to use, Can the center link be repaired and made better or just get a new TRW one? I have read about redoing the old one, but never how to do it.
I have all the tools and equip needed, just never looked at the rabbit tubes.
This is the plan I am going to use, Can the center link be repaired and made better or just get a new TRW one? I have read about redoing the old one, but never how to do it.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Well...be careful here. All struts are basically the same. The cartridge part #;'s used for this conversion should be the quantum/4000 cartridge. Thats an internal valving issue. A few of the Golfs may even use this cartridge. But....the tubes used can be from any that fit. Generally, though they have different internal valving...most of the Jettas, Golf, Cabrios, and quantums had the same physical SIZING on the cartridges. So their strut tubes generally had the same size.
I also forgot to mention, that you will need to gring off the two spotwelds that hold the bottom bracket to the rabbitt cartridges...but thats easy.
At this point, until I have time to lay it out visually, I would buy a new TRW one if I were you...while you can get one. I can easily tell you how to bush that one properly to give it a longer life. But, do not throw away the old one. It can be rebuilt...to be much better than factory...for about $20. A rebuilt one will probably never wear out...because it gets rid of the nylon factory packings. And even if it does wear...just rebuild it again. Ray
I also forgot to mention, that you will need to gring off the two spotwelds that hold the bottom bracket to the rabbitt cartridges...but thats easy.
At this point, until I have time to lay it out visually, I would buy a new TRW one if I were you...while you can get one. I can easily tell you how to bush that one properly to give it a longer life. But, do not throw away the old one. It can be rebuilt...to be much better than factory...for about $20. A rebuilt one will probably never wear out...because it gets rid of the nylon factory packings. And even if it does wear...just rebuild it again. Ray
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Erik H
The front end on my 412 also needs some attention and I would like to know if there is any more info to be tossed into the forum. Has any one here sorted out the details? Also.....
I'm following along as best I can....a little confused.
The last few comments of the thread talks of the center link. That's the Rabbit center link right? Not the stock one. And what of the radius arm center rings, donut bushings and strut details?
I'm following along as best I can....a little confused.
The last few comments of the thread talks of the center link. That's the Rabbit center link right? Not the stock one. And what of the radius arm center rings, donut bushings and strut details?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The rabbit parts were in reference to strut tubes, that could be made to use for an adapter to fit Audi 4000/Quantum strut cartridges to the 411/412 strut housing
. The rabbits have no centerlinks. There is only one centerlink that fits the 411/412...and they fit nothing else.
The radius arm donuts can be made very easily from sheet Urethane with a good quality bi-metal hole saw. The cenetering rings are a little difficult. Either use a piece of delrin tube slipped over the end of the radius arm to take up space, or you will have to have delrin grommet machined. Those are pretty cheap to have done actually. Ray
. The rabbits have no centerlinks. There is only one centerlink that fits the 411/412...and they fit nothing else.
The radius arm donuts can be made very easily from sheet Urethane with a good quality bi-metal hole saw. The cenetering rings are a little difficult. Either use a piece of delrin tube slipped over the end of the radius arm to take up space, or you will have to have delrin grommet machined. Those are pretty cheap to have done actually. Ray
