Front suspension

[ecdez]

As everybody here probably knows, my front suspension is out due to gas tank repairs. Since it's out, I might as well freshen it up. I did a search for "front suspension" and came up with 41 matches. There were two that I believe were the most informative. See links below if interested.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... suspension
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... suspension

I read all 41 threads and now I have a few questions.

1) TRW is constantly mentioned as a source for parts. What is TRW. I did a search and came up with a bunch of dead ends. If anyone has a link, that would be cool .

2) Ray, you said you had a plan to drop in a rabbit manual rack with only a small amount of fabrication. Can you elaborate on this, maybe some pictures ?

3) If anyone has any links to parts, could you please post them.

If anyone has any experiences or tips, lets get them out there once and for all. Maybe this can be the thread that encompasses everything we all know into one source. If we're going to start a Type 4 registry, we need to start compiling all this info anyway. As I do my front end work, I will document everything with pictures, just like with the gas tank. Any and all help is appreciated.

[ecdez]

Here's a start, even though it is some of the easier parts to find.

http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merch ... e4FrontEnd

[raygreenwood]

TRW was formorly just about the largest manufacturere of suspension and sub-assemblies for all types of autos and machines. High quality....much of it OEM. They made all of the centerlinks for VW. Their ball joints and tie rod ends were superb. But, I think they got out of the aftermarket for automotive about 3 years ago. They then sold those interests to Kelsey Hayes. Kelsey hayes makes ALL of the braking components for the big three...and many more. Kelsey hayes also bought all of the rebuilding infrastructure from Lucas Girling.

As for the rack and pinion....this would be dirt simple. I suggest a rabbit unit...simply because they were good, available...and theexact # of turns lock to lock as the 411 and 412 (3.5 turns). If you will notice...the idler arm bracket has the same spacing and bolt pattern as teh steering box. This is a great design, as the idler or steering box could simply be swapped from side to side for right or left hand steering.
It also means that you could easily bolt up an idler arm bracket...or even a Super-beetle idler bracket...to both sides.....leaving a superb mount...for a pair of parralell tube rails....connected with about 3 welded cross braces between them to make what appears to be a simple steel ladder about 40" long. In one space in both long tubes...you put a double ended threaded turn buckle bolt...so you can adjust length and tension this ladder...so it alsoserves as an excellent lower strut tie brace. On that ladder....weld 3 simple bolt tabs...and bolt on a rabbit rack. I believe the knurled/splines shaft is the same diameter. But a standard beetle urethane flex donut coupler here.....and you may have to have the tie rods shortened and re-tapped at the outer ends....but what you now have....is rack and pinion steering.
What it gets rid of.....is the center link, the inner tie rod ends that we use....the steering box and you can also get rid of that pesky idler arm bushing at both ends. Simple. Ray

[vwbill]

Dang, the rack idea sounds sweeet! It get's rid of alot of the possible problems! Are you talking about that ladder thing they use on some of the custom suspensions you see sometimes that is chromed or am I thinking of the top strut brace? Looks like it was made out of bent tubing? I Think I posted the phone numbers on one of my post for the two TRW warehouses. I think though there are some sitting out there in local part houses so your guys should check their sources. The tierod mod for the rack sounds easy; can you just cut to one side and slide a another bigger sleeve and weld? I found ball joints on ebay and tierod ends seem to be available from NAPA to VW shops. The idler arm bushing was available from "Street and Sand Toys" and I'm sure other VW Parts places.
I think that some of the other front rubber parts can be matched with other rubber parts out there and some have to be modified for use or made! Per another great "Ray" idea or plan! bill
p.s. I wonder if a Rabbit rack is priced like some of those other racks that are reman. for the 150 buck or less that would be great? bill

[raygreenwood]

The stock idler arm bushings...a 411 prefix part # that is also used in the super beetle, was a POS. It was wasy soft...andcauses a large amount of steering slop, wobbles and shimmies. The very last year of super, they solved this by making a solid bronze rfeplacement press in bushing with no rubber. Superb improvement. But..since this would no longer be a "truning" part...a simple steel bushing would suffice in each idler bracket. In fact, taking a piece of steel bar stock the exact length of the original bushing could be pressed in, them drill a hole in each end on a drill press to accept a pair of 19mm shoulder bolts. One from top and one from the bottom on each bracket
The long tubes that reach to each side...could be made of thick wall...like .060"...tubing. That way...you can thread them. Then go to the local bearing dealer and get 4 solid rod "eyes"...with male threads to fit those in the long tubes. This way...now the length of each tube is adjustable. You can buy these eyse for about $6-8 ea. They are generally very high grade. You can get them black also..so you can drill your own holes to size.
Just thinkig about it....you would not even probably have to weld connector rungs between the tubes. The mount points for the rack would connect the two tubes solidly. Just weld on tabs for he rack to bolt to.
You could also still use the original rubber bushed idler bushings in each end...if you are worried about vibration. In this set up they would probably not wear at all. And it even further simplifys it. Just press them in do some mods to the original shoulder bolt...or just buy large eyes for the top and small ones for the bottom. Ray Ray

[vwbill]

If we could put that to drawing or print and get the peices together and get a good shop to do it per order. You could with the rack have a good bolt up upgrade!!!! Wonder what the shop part would run? More great ideas from "Ray"! Need to hook up Ray's brain to a automated machine shop, LOL! Thanks bill

[ecdez]

Excellent Ray, that sounds easy enough. My wife has been asking to go to the junkyard lately so now I have an excuse. That's right, she's been asking to go . Gotta love her.

Any particular year rabbit I should be looking for?

[raygreenwood]

Late 70's or early 80's with manual steering. Theyare mostly the same. There is a possibility that a super beetle rack may work...but Idon't know the turns lock to lock. Ray

[Erik H]

Just ask'in.....Has the rabbit or super rack swap been completed by anyone yet?

[vwbill]

You have to like the rack idea! I'm mostly trying to get it back the same or better if it was a weak point! Some of the front end is just standard setup, like the tierods and ends. If you do the steering idler arm bushing upgrade like Ray suggest or at least replace with what is available then you have the strut and mount which can be done with a modified part(strut tube) or with measurements and what is available for cart. and boots then the mount(Beetle). I think Ray had a modification for the new center link anyway but I dont know if you can have one rebuilt? The "T" bar doughnut bushings need to be either matched or made like Ray suggest. I think Ray had a rebuilt for the ball joints and have seen some out there but dont know if you can send those out for rebuild either? I found some parts nos. I think with bushings on the 411/412 you might be able to match some kinda or have to modify a part for use it seems to me. If you do it like Ray tries to tell us you will be a happy driver I think either way you try to do the front end...bill

[raygreenwood]

The stock front end can me made to handle extremely well. The centerlink mods I designed...can be done cheap and simple by anyone. I will try and get some pictures of the ones I have done when I get back. This makes the center link...a very strong part, and takes out the potential slop from wear. It is basically a rebuild. It gets rid of the weak parts....and makes it a snap to rebuild again if needed.

Some people may not be into rebuilding their own stuff. Also, if getting good tie rod ends begins to get problematic....and if you can't find the solid bronze idle arm bush....and don't want to build your own.....and if decnt steering boxes start to get hard to come by....thats where I started thinking about the rack and pinion. It gets rid of the centerlink, the inner tie rod ends and the idler arm bushing. It should give the identical steering ratio...but with a little less slop.

The original mod I did to make stubs to use the Audi cartridges....is very simple...and probably up most peoples alley. It improves handling about 1000%. It also means if you are mechanically "simple"...no insult intended....you can simply drop the pattern off at the machine shop and for $100 bucks...give or take....you can install the cartridges today.
A much better method....or more adjustable for every situation ...in my opinion, is the method of using a shaved rabbit strut tube and top cap....slipped inside of the 411/412 strut tube and spot welded. But that requires welding and measuring.

The real problem....coming real soon....is going to be ball joints. I have my own supply of a set of new spares. But for the rest of you...its going to get tough. Going to a SB ball joint...is no answer. Its too lightly constructed. The ball joints from say a watercooled car...are heavily constructed enough...but do not fit...and the pin diameter is too small even if it did fit...for the leverage generated by the long arms on the 411/412.
What is needed....are some ball joints from something like a dodge truck. They have a heavy pin. The tapered bore in the arm..could be very lightly reamed for correct anle and size. But most American A-arm style , press in cartridge ball joints....would need a bracket or foot to press into....that can bolt to the bottom of the steering knuckle on the 411/412. Fortunately...there is a lot of room to work under that steering knuckle, because the ball joint housing is long.

Rebuilding ball joints. Its not that hard....dpending on what is wrong with the original.
To be rebuildable candidates...they cannot have any lip damage to the metal down on the pin end. They cannot be badly rusted...r have stripped threads. Loose ones...or joints with broken springs inside are the best.

Also...there were early ones with the swaged on cap on the inside..and late cast over ones. The early ones are best.
Generally, either the plastic ball cup has worn or cracked....or the spring has lost tension.
What you do, is cut and pull out the metal cap from the inside of the swaged model. Do not destroy the lip that clamps the cap. If the ball cup is just lightly worn and is not cracked, you will need to scavenge a siffer spring from a front engine water cooled balljoint out of the junkyard. Clean and regrease the inside. You need to make a cap our of a forged washer....or forged plate...that can be pressed down below the lip...them put in a 2mm thick snap ring. The joint is now rebuilt. You can scavenge grease boots from either a bus ball joint....or any comparably sized american truck ball-joint. I have also been thinking of casting new ones...as they are dirt simple. Ray

[Erik H]

So your running the RnP currently? Thanks for the heads-up regarding the ball joints. While we're on the subject.....I have a part number for the ball joints, but is it the early or late number? Of course, given that it's correct in the first place....
#411-412-165E
Further, is the break between the 72-73, 411/412 change?
I think I just found the answer: August 72 maybe?
Part #'s would still be helpfull though.
As always, any clarification will help in the search. Many thanks..

[raygreenwood]

Nope, I'm not running the rack and pinion yet. I want to see how the rebuilt center link lasts/performs before I call it success of failure and go to the RnP to replace it.

The 411-412-165E....I have never seen a new one in my life. It is the standard ball joint with a built in eccentric stud for caster adjustment. It is identifiable by the flat end on the end of the threaded area...similar to what you find on the top of a strut rod...so you can turn it to adjust castor/camber. The standard ball joint was the 411-412-165 C. It fits all years, as did the 165 E. They are all the same.

the differences I was speaking of...are in construction only, and not in specification or size. I don't know if there was a year break for them. I have seen both on all years and models. They all work equally the same. If you do get some 165-E's...you are a lucky man. Ray

[67 T1]

I share the same concern as Erik. Nothing worse than ordering, and finding out you got the wrong item.

Just like some rear brake pads I ordered, went through a whole process of identifing the car by make, model, engine size, and so on. I waited about two months before getting around to opening the box the pads were in, only to discover the order was totally wrong, these things were smaller than my 67' Beetle rear pads. Of course, there was a 30 day return policy.

This is where we can assist each other on Tuna's (our) 412 Club website. When we take on some large task, like rebuilding the front end, we need to list every part we ordered, list the VW part number, tools required, time it takes. Just like Ecdez has done with his gas tank, pictures, the whole 9 yards. But, add the details like tools required, especially specialty tools not in everyones toolbox.

My knowledge of 412s is about paper thin. Meaning, almost everything I know about them I've read from a manual or these threads. So, the more details I get, the better I can 'fix' my 412. Transversely, as I accumulate knowledge, I need to share it with the newbees, so they can fix their type 4s.

Damn this soap box, how does it keep getting under my feet?

[raygreenwood]

Any of the ball joints...that are for 411/412 will fit all models. The worry is....and this is most common, people at your local flaps will look in their books andswear they can get parts for you. They order...it arrives....its usally type 1 or type 3 stuff. Many of the parts books over the years have been totally incorrect...listing parts for the type for as the same as the type 3. I actually had a 10 minute argument with some dumb-ass years ago at a parts counter who kept asking...."upper or lower ball joints"? I kept telling him there are no upper ball joints...its a strut front suspension. He keeps telling me "not according to the book".....I finally had to drag his butt out to the parking lot and show him. Then he would not believe it was the correct car. This is the state of the industry as far as we are concerned.

The bal joints for the type 4 are unique. There will be no mistaking them if you see them. Ray