Argh!!!! I just ordered the wrong bushing from WW...P/N 113-415-441. It's WAY too big in OD and ID to fit the '73 412 idler arm bushing bracket, P/N 411-417-315A and socket-head pin/bolt. I also ordered a bushing from my local import auto place, P/N 411-417-325 just for grins (it was cheap), and it's the bonded rubber with a sintered bronze insert kind...you know, like stock, sloppy pin fit, etc. It'll work if I have to use it, although it's a bit too tight in the bracket. I'm sending the too-big one back to WW. Lesson learned.
Question for Ray...what is the P/N of the solid bushing from a SB that fits the T4 idler arm bracket? I know of at least one that won't fit now . I know you've also said they're easy to machine up out of solid bronze or brass, but I lost the only decent machine shop I'd trust down here (the two brothers decided to retire, more's the pity for us motorheads in Clear Lake), so it's OE style or off-the-shelf for me.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Thats a tough one. I had to go through the little black book. See...the problem is..that the guys I bought it from...had one bronze bushing in a box full of regular bonded bushings. Like they may have gotten it by accident. They sold it to me at the same price. They siad they vaguely remembered that it came into use in the very last year or so of the supers to help combat the mushiness and short life of the stock one.
My log notation is that I installed it on July 29th 1999. It has a part 3...which was written on a bag.....that I suspect the bushing didn't really come in. That part number...and I have a line drawn through it so I don't know.....is 022 129 620. I'll look it up.
But...the bronze bushing is simply a copy of the bonded one. Every external dimension is identical. The ID is the same as the inner bronze bore of the bonded bushing...only not sloppy. Meaure your clevis pin for the ID. Give it maybe .001...as it will wear in. Once installed...drill a hole all the way through the mount and the bushing...and install a grease fitting in the rear facing web of the idler arm bracket. Use a wave washer under the nut for tension. Torique it properly, test the steering a little to gt it broken in. Mark the nut first to make sure it does not back off. use a castle nut. Then mark the bolt with a sharpy when you got it all adjusted...remove the whole assembly....I know...Iknow...its a pain....but drill a hole in the end of the bolt so you can use a cotter pin. You will never have problems with this part again. Much better handling. Ray
Aha! I thought I'd found your magic bushing, but alas, it appears to not be so. I await the number...and if your happy mistake at the parts house was a one-off, then I'd better find a machine shop hereabouts
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Yeah, I got one of those from my local import place, same P/N you quoted. It's the OE style bushing, and suffers from the same sloppy fit that the one on the car does. I demand absolute perfection in the steering linkages, no slop, so I'm on a quest!
Ray had mentioned in an old post that he'd found a solid metal bushing that fit, he thought it was from the last year of SB production, so I thought I'd found it. Turns out, it's not the one Ray found a few years back, so I'm still looking.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Talked to VW yesterday. They dropped the ball on this one. They said they remembered the part. It is the same part # as the 411/superbeetle part. I said...what....no letter code change? They said no..because the oldstock was ok and had been planned to be used up....but that these bronze ones would simply supercede all of the old ones. Sounds like sh*t to me! The guy then said...that his newly updated microfiches....had no part #'s for either super or 411/412 idler bushings...since they are obsolete. So this guy was speaking from dim memory. What a wate of time. I'll keep looking. But these would be easy to make. Ray
Hey Guys, so is the replacement one just going to be as bad as the one in there now? I mean is it worthless to replace it with that part? Does it have to be a better fit or you'll never get rid of the hop? bill
You may be right Herr Doktor Ray. Sounds like a wild goose chase, and I thank you for doing it . Maybe I'll repay your kindness with a donation of some fine ale or something...
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Hey VWBILL, I just read your reply...it depends. I found the fit with the pin on the new replacement part to be almost as loose as the one that's in there now, so I suspect the sintered bronze bushing in the middle of the rubber part is made sloppy on purpose. Maybe it's a manufacturing tolerance thing, too. Either way, I think I'll have to do what the good Doktor prescribes, and machine one up myself. I think I know where to find some big brass rod stock...maybe that'll do. I tend to do better creatively after a brewski, so I'll let you know later!
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
The fit in the bushing is not really what the big issue is. In fact...the really sloppy part is the bonded rubber itself. Install the new bushing, jack up the front endand have someone rotate the wheels for you. Careful where you put your fingers....but....put your fingers on teh tip of the idler arm as it moves. You will see the whole arm flex because the rubber is way too soft. Its also what wrenches the centerlink pins around in their sockets. The rubber is so sloppy you will never notice the slop in the bushing. It also gets torn up too quickly. Ray
Actually, I've got slop in the fit between the pin and the sintered bushing itself in the new one from Meyle. I'm thinking either the pin is worn (possible, but I'm not seeing the expected signs of wear on the pin), or the bushing I got was machined wrong (which may be a problem with new bushings, I don't know). I'm thinking I'm seeing something different from what you're describing, Ray.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Nope...the bushing slop I was speaking of is normal. That would be what appears to be from .001-.003" pf slop between the pin and the bronze sleeve. They are all like that. I even bought a new bolt back in about 98 from the dealer...$40. The bronze one I have appears to be the same tolerance. Same. It also is really the least of the worries once everything is installed and torqued. The rubber part is the main flaw. Its too soft. Ray
OK, that makes me feel a bit better about the pin, at least. Thanks Ray.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
Hey Guys, so the replacement bushing rubber is the same condition as the original? So, we really need a bushing with a better type of rubber or will the replacement one if installed properly work well? Is it one of the main causes or the shimmy at 45mph? I drove my car after doing the center link, strut mounts and struts, tierod ends and it still shock as bad.
I havent done the Idler arm bushing yet or had her aligned or tires balanced but it seems to always start at that speed; what makes it so sensitive? bill
Yes...that idler bushing is part of the main cause of the shimmies. There are a few other causes. Please bear this in mind. The front end of the type 4...is totally unique. Not that there are not a jillion other cars using Mcpherson struts...but...none have the very long track control arms that the type 4 does. The 411/412 use a reverse radius arm to control the huge leverage these long arms generate on the front suspension components. But....even so, it means that every little imperfection is magnified. Here are the causes of the shimmy. This goes for the super as well. But less so due to the shorter track control arm length.
(1) Slop in the center link with age
(2) week idler arm bushing
(3) worn centering rings on the radius arms
(4) floating strut cartridges
(5) Weakness in the strut bearings (early bonded)
The center link is self explanitory.The nylon craps out.....by the way MGVW...sorry for the delay. All of the correct parts are in my hands...and clearanced. Just have to re-assemble and measure. The link should be out of here by friday.
The idler arm bushing should have no rubber whatsoever. There is no need for it. Any vibration is well damped by the bushings in the center link and the grease in the steerig box and the tie rod ends. It should be solid bronze....or even steel would be fine with a grease fitting.
Is everyone familiar with what the centering rings are? At the end of the diagonal radius arms, you have a donut on each side of the "ear" where the radius arm mounts to the Tee shaped subrame. Mounted in that ear....sandwiched between the two donuts....is what is actually a grommet, made originally of UHMW polyethylene. In many cars it disentigrates...so you never know it was there. Without it....the hole that the rod of the radius arm goes into....in the "ear"...is actually about 3/16" too big in all directions. It allows the end of the radius arm with the donuts to move about 3/16" in all directions. It changes your steering angle as you go over bumps....and causes tons of vibration. I had some simple single flange grommets made up out of delrin at a machine shop in 1994 (working on getting more)....and they have never had problems since. I can give dimensions. They need to be delrin or torlon. That way they are rigid...the factory one were too soft....and they are low friction.
The strut cartridges have a habit of letting the bottoms of the cartridge flop around and beat aginst the sides of the strut tube. You can take a piece of old inner tube....and do 4 wraps around and glue with gorilla snot before you install the cartridge....as a packing...and it stops this. How to tell if its happening? Jack up one side so the tire is off the ground. Reach in with two fingers...put one on the extended strut rod right above the top locking cap on the tube....and the other one on the cap itself. Grab the wheel at 6 or 12 oclock...and rock it in and out. You will feel the strut rod move from side to side in relation to the tube.
If you have the early symmetrical bonded style of strut bushng....and they are not new....they are shot. Even if they are NOS...they may be shot. The only way to see the crack that forms from compression, is to jack up one side...remove the wheel ....and look up with a light..to see the fully extended/compressed rubber from the bushing underneath where the part is bolted to the body. You will see just how far this flexes...and there will be a crack in the rubber...all the way around...that is invisible...once the weight of the car is back on it. Again...they were a bit soft. The late model one from the 412...s much much better. It takes clearancing the hole in the body where the top of the bushing comes through...and drilling an extra bolt hole..but is well worth it to use.
Lastly....since the arms on this suspension are so long...and its so sensitive....if you have the original steel wheels on the car....there is a 90% chance they are bent. Many times, they are not bent axially. If they have sat immobile for more than two years....trust me...they have taken a "spread" . This is not seen by most balancing people. It is a flat spot where the rims have spread from each other. So the wheel may be perfectly straight and true in an axial fashion...but radialy....it technically is equivalent to having the lugs holes drilled off center...as it gives an up and down oscillation. Also, most shops do a sh*tty job balancing these wheels. If it takes more than 1/2 oz of weight....anywhere....that weight should be split between the inside rim and the outside rim. On this basically centered type of wheel, unlike front wheel drive basket style rims.....it majes a huge difference. Also, the later model radial tires have better traction....therefore they exert more force on the arms...spreading the tires out farther...requiring extra toe-in. Usually the stock toe-in specs are about 1 degree shy of where they need to be. Also...if you use wider than stock rims.....like 5.5" like I do ...with 205/60-15's....also add 1 extra degree of toe-in. Ray
I just ordered the wrong bushing from WW...P/N 113-415-441. It's WAY too big in OD and ID to fit the '73 412 idler arm bushing bracket, P/N 411-417-315A and socket-head pin/bolt. I also ordered a bushing from my local import auto place, P/N 411-417-325 just for grins (it was cheap), and it's the bonded rubber with a sintered bronze insert kind...you know, like stock, sloppy pin fit, etc. It'll work if I have to use it, although it's a bit too tight in the bracket. I'm sending the too-big one back to WW. Lesson learned.
. I know you've also said they're easy to machine up out of solid bronze or brass, but I lost the only decent machine shop I'd trust down here (the two brothers decided to retire, more's the pity for us motorheads in Clear Lake), so it's OE style or off-the-shelf for me.
. Maybe I'll repay your kindness with a donation of some fine ale or something...