411/412 automatic transmission in porsche 914

razwiers · Post by **razwiers** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:59 pm

Hi everyone,

I just found this forum and was wondering if anyone can give me information about the following:

My wife and I have two 914's (I know this is a 411/412 page, I will get to that later), One is my daily driver and the other was meant to be her fun car, You have to know that my wife has never driven stick shift before. Eventually she got the hang of it, She really loves the car but I guess for her stick shift is not love at first sight .
Un fortunately her car got engine fire damage two weeks ago, I really feel bad about it ( it was my own fault, did not unhook battery when dry cranking a flooded engine with sparks out, I know I will never be able to forgive myself) Anyway, I felt the car was to good to throw away, so I decided to rebuild the car (have a lot of spare parts) but I noticed that my wife would rather have an automatic.
At first I was thinking of getting her another car like a bmw 2002, or opel 1900 something else sporty w/ at.

But then I thought what if I can put a automatic transmission / transaxle in the 914. I know the porsche 914 basically shares the same type 4 engine with a 411/412 but in a different setup, midengine instead of rearengine. and 411/412 came w/ at's
If I were to put a 411/412 at in this car, is there a way I can dissamble the at, flip the ring and pinion to reverse the direction

?
Has any of you ever opened up a automatic transmission, any idea how hard it will be. I have rebuild my manual transmission but I have a feeling that an at will be much harder.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Raimond

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:31 pm

To be honest.

Tell her to live with the 914 tranny.

MGVWfan · Post by **MGVWfan** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:38 pm

Howdy! Interesting idea, an Auto 914.

I've never contemplated such a thing myself, but I do have the AT out of my '73 412 wagon, and I'm going to overhaul it myself. Get the Bentley manual for the Type 3, the AT section is the same as the Type 4 AT (VW 003), and give it a look to see how hard rebuilding one is. I personally think it appears to be one of the easiest transmissions to rebuild, AT or manual, that I've ever messed with. It's a strange design, with triple concentric shafts going through the diff section, but that unusual design makes the auto section really modular and relatively easy to overhaul. Well, at least that's how it appears now, ask me in a few weeks after I do the trans, I may have a different take

I'd say the fit into a 914 would depend on driveshaft flange dimensions and placement, ring gear clearance in the "inverted" location, shifter mechanism compatibility, and front (rear in the 914) trans mount configuration compatibility. When you "invert" the ring gear, you'll have to reset the side bearing preloads, too. Not impossible, but a consideration.

Good luck in any case!

OPEL 1900??? Wow, interesting idea! I've seen two Opel GT's here in my neck of the woods recently, a Manta or a 1900 would be really neat.

MGVWfan · Post by **MGVWfan** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:39 pm

Think that avatar is BIG ENOUGH, Herr DB?

EDIT...WHOA, it's back to normal now, whazzap widdat?

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:41 pm

going from a 5 speed to a 3 speed auto will not be very pleasant. I have ridden in a 914 1.7 and I own a 412 1.7 with an auto, there is a BIG difference, the 914 is much more peppy.

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:43 pm

MGVWfan wrote:Think that avatar is BIG ENOUGH, Herr DB?

EDIT...WHOA, it's back to normal now, whazzap widdat?

its STF, crazy stuff happening!

MGVWfan · Post by **MGVWfan** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:44 pm

Well, you know what WTF means, maybe STF means something similar?

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:48 pm

MGVWfan wrote:Well, you know what WTF means, maybe STF means something similar?

lol, I linked to the wrong off site Avatar.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:03 pm

I think you would be better off exploring ideas like an Audi 5000 or other FWD Audi automatic transmission, it's pointing the correct direction, or possibly a VW Fox auto trans. I know this or a similar discussion has happened somewhere...

razwiers · Post by **razwiers** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:05 pm

Hi MGVWfan

Good idea, I will study the Bently to see if it possible what I want to do,
Sure would like to know how your rebuild project will turn out, good luck with that. Thanks for your input

Raimond

razwiers · Post by **razwiers** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:24 pm

ubercrap wrote:I think you would be better off exploring ideas like an Audi 5000 or other FWD Audi automatic transmission, it's pointing the correct direction, or possibly a VW Fox auto trans. I know this or a similar discussion has happened somewhere...

Hi ubercrap,

I do remember reading that somewhere myself when browsing the web, about the audi at. I am not familiar with the audi at nor the fox at, are they also transaxles? Does the audi and fox have a longitudinal engine?. If that is the case, I would have to study how they would attach to the type 4 engine, and how the flanges would line up with the rear wheels. You see that is why I thought that the 412 at would be an option because it apparently bolts right up to the 914, (still need to check flange alignment though). But ofcourse if flipping ring and pinion would proof to be very difficult, it might be easier to choose an at that does have the right rotation direction but needs a customized adapter plate.

Also I understand that the 412 at does not have a spiffy performance? I am more a manual person myself and the only automatic I ever had (first car when I came to the US was a 87 bonneville, (don´t ask why))
But since this car is meant for my wife who just likes to hop around town, not a race type or such, If it would work, would the 412 be ok driveability wise? What are your experiences with this transmission?

Do you happen to remember where you read about the audi and fox at, I would like very much to read that

mmmh food for thought.

Thanks, Raimond

razwiers · Post by **razwiers** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:33 pm

Hi DeathBus,

I know what you are saying, I tried to make her enthust about driving a manual, but what can you do, Personnaly I find that a true sportscar needs to have a manual, I have been riding motorcycles for most of my life even before I started driving cars. The first time I drove a car it was an automatic and I hated it that it felt he car was already going before I did anything and I could not brake on the engine, with shifting down. After that I started driving manual cars and I got the same feeling of control again.
But my wife has driving automatics all her live and has a hard time focusing on traffic and handling the gears, it spoils her fun of driving, and that should not be the case either, So that´s how I came to think about joining the two (at + 914) together.

Raimond

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:02 pm

Well, I don't know about the AT equipped Type 4's, but the 412 2dr. sedan w/ 4spd. manual is the second fastest stock aircooled VW ever produced, second only to the VW SP-2 I believe (at least in top speed). I know what you mean about the manual trans., they're the only way to go! For me, I don't even think about it when I'm driving, unless I want to, and then it is very enjoyable and gives that feeling of control. I've heard the 914 is a bit of a tricky car to get used to shifting, though...

Anyway, on to the technical questions, yes, the various Audis have a longitudinal engine layout, with FWD transaxle (sorry, I should have referred to it correctly in the other post), as did VW Quantums, Dashers, and Foxes, and the newer "B5" Passats which are very closely related to the Audi A4. They are pointing the right way for a mid-engined setup. As for bolting directly up to a Type 4 engine, I'm not sure...Kennedy Engineering would probably have an adapter if you needed one. Not sure about automatics/torque converters, though, that could be tricky. If it is possible, that will be the easy part. You would have to do some measuring at the junkyard to see if the dimensions of the Audi/VW FWD transmission were even remotely suitable to line up with the 914 body, and then you would have to fabricate custom mounts more than likely, and deal with the axle issue, as well as the shifter mechanism... I still think it could be done, just going to be some work. OK, well, a ton of work... I'll try to find out where that other thread was...

razwiers · Post by **razwiers** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:24 pm

Hi Ubercrap, I think I might have found the link

http://www.pelicanbbs.com/posts/155.htm

that you were talking about, It makes mention of some of the same issues that we were talking about. This is great , I guess I can call the
Kennedy guys for some info too.

Thanks

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 pm

I may have stumbled upon that one before, but I know there is another thread out there, I think it started when somebody was asking about putting a VW Fox manual trans. in a 914... Most of the same info, though. Interesting, they do mention the Brazilian VW that had a front engined air-cooled setup, was it the first version of the Gol? I need sleep anyway, I'll look it up later...