suspension idea...

[ubercrap]

As long as one was building shorter struts for the front, and forgetting about proper steering geometry for a moment, why not have a spacer machined to fit between the ball joint and steering knuckle and use some longer bolts to hold it together? Of course the bottom of the spacer would need the "hump" like the bottom of the strut that normally sticks through the to provide postive interlock into the ball joint, and the space at the top for the bottom of the strut to fit into. This would keep your static suspension arm geometry the same. How dangerous do you think this would be?

[vwbill]

I like your idea! If we are adding a peice how do we reduce the height?
Are you thinking with a shorter strut lenght? We need the same travel right??? Sounds like a Ray discussion! My biggest problem when matchin the original travel less the height adjustment was the top taper area of the replacement cart. to the mount and finding spacers to get me to that number! I got close with the bearing race in the original tube to brace and space the cap to the replacement cart. but I only got around a inch in reducetion with the shaft taper spacer I could find but if you had access to a chop saw and a good machine shop you could get closer!
It seemed that the total travel of all the replacement cart. had different travel lengths and tapers at the top of the shafts! bill

[ubercrap]

Well, I'm thinking of using the water-cooled strut tube slipped into the Type 4 lower section with the VW Quantum/Audi 4000 insert in it like Ray was suggesting. Whenever I get all the parts side-by-side, I can start measuring the various lengths of things to see precisely how to do it. I'm assuming that the WCVW strut insert is shorter, allowing the top to sit higher in relation to the spring, allowing for some shortening of the Type 4 strut body at some point in the middle. The water-cooled strut tube inside will allow for perfectly straight and sturdy reinforcement of any cut up sections being welded back together. Positioning of the lower spring seat is what will be critical. Measuring up from the lowered spring seat to keep the extended spring length the same length (preserving factory spring rate) will determine the positioning of the WCVW strut body inside the strut tube. Heck, maybe the WCVW strut body can retain its spring seat, and just be slipped in to the Type 4 strut body cut to the correct length after figuring. Read the other posts by Ray for how to make that aspect adjustable. It sounds difficult to me, and I think the effort might be better spent making the lower spring seat adjustable somehow? Of course both would be awesome! Adjustable damping on the strut inserts would be fantastic too, 100% adjustability! What is hard to tell is to predict how the car will sit when it is all back together... My '73 was sitting so high in the front, there was probably 5-6" of wheelwell gap. The strut insert rebound damping was obviously completely shot as I think they may be the originals to the car. The most complete '74 I have in my possession right now has about a 3" wheelwell gap in the front. The strut inserts in that car seem decent. I know Ray has given lowering amount suggestions, but I'm one of those fools that must find things out for themselves, and I like to have a car sitting just right to my tastes.

[raygreenwood]

I have been through these permutations. hort of the ways we have discussed...the spacer you are suggesting is the only way to use a shorter strut. The strength issue...is one I am not sure of. Those bolts would be long. Personnally,...if possible...I would increase their diameter.

This whole problem is deceptive when looking at a car with originals strut cartridges....that are shot. Problem is....when the rebound damping is shot, you pick up perhaps 1.5" over the correct nose high shock setting which is about 1" to high.

Remocing the lower spring perch is gonna be a big problem. But bear this in mind. 1" to 1.5" extra compression of the spring is no problem when using the Audi cartridges. In fact...just short of 1" of lowering ...without changing perch position...is what I used. At that rate....the lip of the fender well lines up to about 1" into the sidewall of the tire on a 205-60/15. Thats nice. No bottoming out...no rubbing inside or outside.
Anything lower than about 1"...will not only give a geometry destroying forward rake...but will also make the front tires scrape and bottom out....when you load the trunk. But....if for some reason you needto lower the front end slightly more.......cut the spring. It is single rate....and progressive. With the already 1" more than stock compression of the spring due to using the Audi strut as per my directions, the extra spring load coupled with the high damping rate...will be more than enough to absorb an extra .5-1" lowering...via cutting the spring. If you must lower more...don't mess with the perch. At the very least...get the parts, do the mods, install at 1" lower than stock...and drive for a few days. If you need to lower more....the mods I dsecribe will aloow that with no other changes. If then...you find that compressing the main coil leaves more tension than you comfortably like..trim the coil...1/4 coil at a time. Ray

[ubercrap]

OK Ray, I'm just stubborn because I was raised in the "show-me-state." I probably am being deceived by the worn stock parts. I just went an measured and the '74's I have in the shop and they have a 3.5-4" wheelwell gap. I didn't measure the '73 before I took it apart, but I would guess now the gap was about 7" when I mentally compare the way it was to the other cars.

Okay, so the extended spring length with the strut assembly put together with the VW Quantum/Audi 4000 KYB GR-2 strut cartridge should be an inch shorter when the strut is out of the car? Or does some other starting measurement give that much lowering when the spring is compressed by the weight of the car when it is installed? Dammit, I'm getting tired and it's getting hard for me to picture this exactly in my mind.

[raygreenwood]

Things to bear in mind.....if you reach in...and remove the nut on top of the strut, with the strut installed in the car, and the wheels on teh ground......the strut does not explode apart...or change position at all.....on a set of struts in proper condition... :shock:

There are numerous things that can make one car look higher than another. First, one of the most common mistakes between 411 and early 412's...is that they both take the same aftermarket strut part #. But....there is a 13-15mm spacer that must be left off of one...and not the other. Most people leave that in..and it adds 13-15mm to the front height. Add to this...if the rear droops at all....another half inch or so. Next...there is ...from chassis #460 2030 186 in the variant...and chassis # 410, 2032 317...a change in static castor from 9mm to 16mm of strut king pin inclination relative to the stub axle. That can make later cars look lower in the front end.

What you are concerned with... visually....like the super beetle, is the gap ...visible when looking directly sideways....at the front wheel....over the tire....measureable from the top of the tread to the center of the wheel arch. If yourcar is drooping in the rear and slightly lifted in the front end....it makes the whole angle of the car visually wrong...and it loads a lot of the weight toward the rear...further unloading the front....and changing the static castor by about 2*. That worsens this appearance.

When you do the audi strut mod....you need to first...make sure your stock struts have teh correct parts in them . Then...remove them from teh car...lay them on the work bench. Now...pick a point on the lip of the top plate...and put a punch mark there so you know where it is . Then...on the lower perch...put a punch mark directly across from it. Measure the gap from edge to edge. The audi strut...when done properly...should give you approximately 19mm shorter gap/spring length.

This ....is even more important. The single thing that exacerbates the front visual angle.....is squating in the rear. DO NOT...do a single thing to the front end...until....you correct the rear.
1)..Get some good KYB gas shocks. If you need the cross match numbers..let me know. They are readily available. This alone...usally will visually dump and inch! :shock: from the front gap...while still leaving the rear fender arch about 1"-1.5" into the sidewall.
2)...if you have noticable rear wheel leaning or camber..you must correct that. There are several things you can do....let me know and I will walk you through it. That can reduce 1/2"-3/4" from the front gap.

So..by straightening the rear...you can dump two 2" from the front. This can visually seem to be more...as it also helps load the castor properly.

Now, think of dropping that another 1" with the strut mod....which will also visually equalize the car. It can pull even more emphasis to the front...because lowering the front....lifts the rear...get it?
I will be towing my car out of the storage unit this weekend. Someone send me a personnal e-mail...and I will e-mail you digital pictures of the front end stance of my poor dirty 412....and ber in mind...the back ...though it looks relatively normal...is just slightly high cause it has no engine in it. Then....I will tell you about the double sway bar assembly I have in the rear with the custom mount bushings ...that really helps stance and handling :D Ray

[ubercrap]

Wow, thanks for all the info Ray. I e-mailed you, and if you get some pictures of your car's stance, I can post them up if you want. I guess you can describe it forever, but the highly visual part of me is still curious as to exactly how it looks. :D

[raygreenwood]

Cool! Ray