Shocks and struts revisited...

[bonzosa]

Latest prices I found ('71 411 sedan)...FYI

I just ordered KYB 5406 shocks from Coximport.com and the adjustable Koni struts from classicgarage.com.

The KYB's - $102 w/ shipping
Koni's - $207 w/shipping

These were the lowest prices I could find. Local KYB dealers were selling the shocks for 70 a piece, retail, go figure.

Could not find the Koni's anywhere else.



Additionally, from the past posts about suspension I gathered that the ball joints are an achilles heel if the struts are too tight on the rebound. How do you know where that comfort range is?

Also, what is the optimum height for the front and rear end?
Anyone?

Be well...

[ubercrap]

Oh, the Koni's are still available? Ah, I see they are only listed in the 411 section for some reason, although when I click on them, it takes me to the oil filter page...

[raygreenwood]

Local KYB dealers? Those are extremely old stock. KYB discontinud the last of the 411/412 struts in about 1989. Unless.....they have started back up...but I doubt it. You will get about 10-15k miles from them.

The Konis are also old stock. I don't know how old. But...they must have the long top pin to use with the original bump stop. They probably also come with the bushing for use with early and late. But theye will not fit the 412's....without knocking a hole in the trunk hood when you bottom out....be warned of that...been there. Ray

[MGVWfan]

Aren't KYB 5406's those Ford van fronts that also work on the rear of the T4's?

[raygreenwood]

Uh....sorry.... ...skimming too fast...uh...nevermind....carry on!

Actually, the price is interesting though. Thats a little pricey. I generally get the KYB's for the rear at around $39 ea. Then again...just found out yesterday, that my favorite jobber...is no longer a KYB dealer. They have been one for about 20 years. Are KYB's prices going up everywhere? I will start checking and report back. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, are you saying the Koni's wont work because the total tube/travel is too great or just the top treaded area of the shaft?
Why cant you space the shaft taper area to raise the mounting beyond the mount? Maybe I am missing the point! Does the strut travel have to be at the mid point of travel when the car is at rest for the strut to work right? I have used the Orange adjust koni's in my car now with shaft taper spacers to get a lowering but when I did lower the car on the ground it seems kinda stiff? bill

[raygreenwood]

You have to look at the two cartridges next to each other to see this. The very late model looks a lot like say...a rabbit srut at the top. The main rod diameter ends at like a 2.5" long 14mm stud on the late 412. It uses a totally different bump stop arrangement than the early 411, late 411 and early 412.
Now...looking at the early style strut...the pin at the top is nearly 6" long with about 1.75" of thread at the top. It is supposed to have a 13-15mm steel spacer (late 411/early 412) then the inner spacer of the bump stop...another 3.0" or so...then it goes through the top plate, fflat washer, strut bearing, spacer and then the nut.

Even if you use the early bump stop and all the spacers....you still have to use the late model assymetrical strut bushing/bearing at the top. It is not as thick...so the extra rod protrudes from the top of the strut bearing....wherin you will need about 19mm of spacer under the nut because the nut will be bottomed out on its threads....and this induction hardended rod is nearly impossible to thread further.

So....at that point...you will think everything is copacetic with that 19mm spacer. But you must climb inside the trunk...with a flashlight....and close and latch the lid (do this with an assistant...please).....
From that vantage point you will see that the top of the rod...is about 1/2" from touching the iside of the trunk hood. When you go over bumps...and the bushing flexes....which it flexes about.....1/2".... ....you have just dented your hood from the inside out. Been there...done that....have the dented hood to prove it.

Yes...you could spacer it down...but the spacer will have to be nder the top spring plate on the strut body side, inside the spring. No big deal....but...also since the strut bushings and spacers are different...your car will now be almost an inch HIGHER in the front end thatn italready was.... . This is what I was explaining a while back, that sometimes when you find a 412...that is really nose high and not squating in the rear end.....it may have spacered 411 struts on it. Also, the valving on the early struts was not as good.....and the valving on all of them was not great anyway. Ray

[vwbill]

Man Ray, we need you to write a book on all the stuff you know for the 411/412's along with all the great info the rest of the guys have given!
I cant seem to print it all out! LOl! I never knew the strut would flex that much up past the mount! Bill

[raygreenwood]

Yeah.... I never did either until I dented the hood about 6 years ago........but I have new hood.....and solutions to the problem Ray

[vwbill]

Ok stupid question number 3K, I know if the struts are too tight you will trash the ball joints from being too stiff but what should the rebound be like say when you jump on the front bumper up and down? Should it move just a little and be kinda stiff or move almost the whole travel and then come to rest? Bill

[raygreenwood]

Thats a loaded question. On the stock factory struts ...and even the Monroe and KYB replacement cartridges...you could get full travel by standing on the bumper and pushing down. It would give one stroke then control itself on the rebound. But, nice and normal as that seems... its actually sloppy when driven...as the force generated by the long suspension arms and the front overhang, overcome the actual light weight of the front end. The 411/412 didn't handle "badly" per-se......more like kinds "soupy".

The audi strut cartridges on the other hand..... kind of scare you when you jump up on the front bumper. They compress under my weight....about 1" max.... ...no kidding! But when driven...they are just superb. Highly controlling without being too tight...no juddering. I go over those 4 foot wide 1 foot high road humps in the nice neighborhoods in Dallas.....at about 40 mph ! It barely pulls the body out of plane.

It works so well...because these are low pressure gas and oil combo (GR-2's). Also the valving is just stupendous for our long suspension arms. They were designed for a 600 lb power train with short arms...but for soft ride, so we fit just right in its valving range, but...kind of from the other direction. They actually give this car better control than they gave the Audi/Quantum.
If by chance you were to put the gas-a-just high pressure shocks on....they will lock up solid. They will break lots of things including kidneys and teeth. Ray

[Guest]

Ray- Wish I would have read that review before my last purchase!

Those damn road bumps are all over Portland.

Proves that timing is everything...

[raygreenwood]

Don't sweat it. Its not just a slip in cartridge. There is some work to be done to use them. Ray