Can we use these for the front struts?

[vwbill]

Hey Guys, have you seen this setup? Wonder if we could use something like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=33582

[raygreenwood]

No. Wrong spring rates, wrong length, wrong damping. Those are made for direct bolt in installation on Hondas. After trying ....most of 50+ cartridges looking for correct valving, the only ones I have found that have both enough length to be modifed and just the right amount of damping ....are the cartridge for audi 4000s and Quantum. They are superb. They are easily a 200% improvement over stock. Tey handle flat and tight with no jolts or roughness. The problem is NOT the front springs. They are greatly larger than anything the 411/412 ever needed. The problem is hat the cartridge was too weak from the factory. The factory springs can literally destroy the ball joints and control arm bushings when the dampers go out. The install is not to hard. they either have to have an extension stub made or have a new tube insrted into the original strut tube from a rabbit to hold the cartridge at the correct height. Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Ray, sorry I guess I asked the wrong question! I was really just looking at that interior threaded peice that adjusts the ride height! I guess I didnt read the auction well enough! I just thought it was for the threaded part with the rings to attach to the coil spring. bill

[DeathBus]

I am going to use those and put a giant wing on the rear of my car.

[raygreenwood]

Ah....I see your question now. Actually, having threaded adjustable spring seats would be semi-useful for keeping the pre-load normal when making the 1" front adjustment to get these cars level. I say semi-useful...because once that is done.....and again...its only one inch, but once thats done, lower profile tires are put on, and the castor is slightly re-set, this wil leave the 411/412....as low as is practial. Lowering anymore from that....is totally impractical. Most people have no real idea exactly how low these cars are already. They just look strange because they have a long front end overhang which....added with being an inch too high.....and added with tall skinny tires, plus the shocks are usually shot in the rear....adding all that together....and the high interior cabin space.........most people get an instant picture that these cars are greatly high. That is an illusion. With stock tire height alone....the max clearance in the rear is under 6" to the cross member.
The stock spring compression easily absorbs up to 1.5" of lowering in the front end with no detriment. Anything else is a waste.....and will actually make the car worse handling.....and will destroy parts because you will need springs that are stiff enough to arest long travel arms and movement in too short of a space . The body will flex....and so will the ball joints. Those moveable perches are strictly for lowering. Ray

[Marc]

You can make your own threaded sleeves from pipe and electric service panel entrance nuts (2 or 3 stacked and tack-welded together adds strength and makes it easier to get a grip when turning).

[raygreenwood]

Yup.....i have seen that done. It qorks quite well.One variation of that....of which i am working on a prototype for, is to use a strut tube....in this case from a rabbit/golf....tha slips tightly into the 411/412 tube (after stripping off all of the flanges on the rabbit tube)....and uses a welded on threaded rod 9welded onto the rabbit tube) to engage a long tube nut welded into the bottom of the 411/412 tube. The outer cinch collar will be made similar to that. This way,...with the bottomspring perch staying staionary as part of the 411/412 tube...you can screw the inner tube in and out to re-set the total extended strut length. This allows the use of the audi 4000 strut cartridge.
Yes...i have thought about cutting off the bottom perch...adding an inner tube with locking nuts as Marc suggested. Its still a good idea. But one thing I have found...is that the spring rate...with this new strut cartridge...is quite acceptable up to about 1.5" of extra pre-load compression. If you were lowering farther than that....you would definately need to move the lower perch. The springs on these struts are huge.
One of the largest problems with lowering on this vehicle....can simply be seen while laying under the front end....and observing.

More than 1"-1.5" of lowering...and because of the lebgth of the control arms...which are large....you will be very short of available arc left in the control arm bushing mounts....that...and past a certain amount of rotation of the radius arms in their sockets....you have the need for the sockets to change angles. When the control arms bottom out in their arcs.....the rotation of sprung radius arm...becomes not rotation...but leverage in the down direction. It shatters the sockets. Been there, done that. Also adding to that, is lowering past 1.5 inch in the front will bring the bottom out range of the sway bar and its top mounts...into ineterference range with the control arm. It will rip the mounts from the front of the body. Been there...done that. Ugly. The sway bar mount would have to be re-designed...as they cannot be mounted on the bottom side of the control arm...as they then bring total clearance to pavement, at lowest point ,down to about 2".

Not trying to discourage the use of the the threaded perch....that is a great tuning tool. Just trying to discourage excessive lowering on this car...until things are generally set up correctly so you can see what you have. With about 1" lowring...and two degree extra castor...which in effect lowers about aother 1/2 inch.....the car is almost too low.
it is though...level from front to back....and now...there is about 7.5" total from the lowest part on the subframe...compared to a previous 9.5". Ray

[ubercrap]

You can make your own threaded sleeves from pipe and electric service panel entrance nuts (2 or 3 stacked and tack-welded together adds strength and makes it easier to get a grip when turning).

I thought about this idea, but wasn't sure where to look for the stuff locally.

[vwcarnut]

Excuse my ignorance as I am new to the type 4 So basically we have to use the stock stuff? Could someone give me a better idea as to what other cartridges will work & what mods are needed to put them in? New to the type 4 world as I just bought a 71 411 2dr 4spd model that had come frome overseas. I would really like to improve the handling of this car.(Not necessary to lower it, just make it handle well) What about the springs/cartridges for a Super? I have messed w/these & alot is available. I assume these are different? I can see where the spring rate would be because of the weight difference. Thanks all.

[albert]

go to see classic garage .com ,, or read the old post from ray for audi 4000 strut , ,,,alb.