New to me 412 is at its new home!!!
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Be safe! Do a Ray Check!
Isnt it funny how testing a regulator/alternator can be a serious thing! That's why the replace it new way is how people think! They want to know why it takes so long just to find a charging issue! Even with a Charging system tester you still need to make sure all the elements of the electrical system are working! Even charging a battery fully can be a issue! People think of car mechanical work as simple(turning wrenches) but it can be frustating and uses so many skills! Think about just a ground cable issue or clean connection! It really is crazy how you can get a car to just turn and go! Not too many people know how many things have to happen to make that condition! Think of our car being the first generations of FI system compared to now! I think like Ray when you go through all the components you are sure you arent gonna be cruizing along and have a 30 year old part that keeps the car going in a straight line go out! You end up spending the money twice in the long run! bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Just a note....my apologies if I seemed rude on that last post. 
It was not meant that way. I am just happy so many people are finally getting interested in the type 4.
There is also this to think about. Many who write in from Europe...seem to have a few less problems with supension than we do here. One thing that may have to do with...is heat and air quality.
Didn't mean to sound rude type4org.....just have a lot of experience with the suspension on these things. Ray
It was not meant that way. I am just happy so many people are finally getting interested in the type 4. There is also this to think about. Many who write in from Europe...seem to have a few less problems with supension than we do here. One thing that may have to do with...is heat and air quality.
Didn't mean to sound rude type4org.....just have a lot of experience with the suspension on these things. Ray
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Guest
To be rude or not
Nah, no offense taken Ray. But you didn't really answer my question about specific symptoms to look out for 
The car is not from Europe, I bought it in the US in 1993 and then took it with me when I moved back to Germany last year. While in the US it has seen a lot of extreme heat and extreme cold, but it's been garaged most of the time.
No one can be sure how the car is "supposed" to handle I would think. You can't emulate the "everything is new from the factory and fully according to spec" state unless you spend major money or effort. My personal impression is still "wow, this is excellent for a 31 year old car!", and that's good enough for me right now
The car is not from Europe, I bought it in the US in 1993 and then took it with me when I moved back to Germany last year. While in the US it has seen a lot of extreme heat and extreme cold, but it's been garaged most of the time.
No one can be sure how the car is "supposed" to handle I would think. You can't emulate the "everything is new from the factory and fully according to spec" state unless you spend major money or effort. My personal impression is still "wow, this is excellent for a 31 year old car!", and that's good enough for me right now
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Oh...sorry...forgot to answer that one.
There are several things that cause the "clonking" sound. Each one ...by itself, does not cause huge handling issues. Generally each will cause a slow degradation.
(1) This is a kind of flaw many strut systems have. Its more caused by variations in the manufactured shape of the struts. The clonking can many times be caused by the bottom of the strut cartridge slipping from side to side...and whacking against the strut tube. It does not cause much in the way of straightline handling problems...mainly just transfer of vibration and a slight rattle at certain speeds, in the steering wheel...but in turns, (not even hard turns), but turning a corner at an intersection, it will "clonk"...and make the steering feel like the tire slipped over a groove in the pavement. Many people do not really even notice. It feels kinda like high sidewall squishy tires do.
Check the cap at the top of the strut tube for tightness. A really excellent fix is to remove the strut cartridge and wrap a band of thin rubber around it as a bushing. Use of an old inner tube for a bike works well.
This can be felt...by jacking the wheel up off the ground, inserting two fingers through the spring...one on the cap for staionary reference...and one one the strut rod. Then grab the spring and shake it around. Any movement will be felt.
(2) There are two parts...both of which will cause "clonking" alone...but are worse together. They also cause slop at the wheel and are responsible for the high speed shimmy syndrome.
This would be the idler arm bushing, and the centerlink. What happens, is the idler arm bushing rubber....was very weak. Its best to replace it with a solid bronze bushing. They made one for teh last year of teh super beetle. They are rare to find. But...they are simple and cheap to make at any machine shop. It is the same part number used on the super beetle. The rubber at the idler arm side gets ground away. This allows the side to side force, to be actually transmitted as an up and down force...much the same as the arm on an advance unit vacuum can will rise, instead of pull....when the hole in the arm gets worn oval. This can be felt...and seen..by jacking the entire front end off the ground....carefully....and getting underneath and having someone turn the wheel from lock to lock. The end of the arm attached to the centerlink will rise slightly. Usually.....the sound is the steering stabilizer knocking against the body or subframe as it pulls out of alignment.
The centerlink generally starts its self destruction from this movement. The centerlink contains bushed pins.....bushed with nylon packings.....not ball joints. This up and down pulling movement....other than side to side...grinds up the packings.
By hand movement...the centerlink will appear to have very little slack in it. This is because the top part of the nylon packing that protrudes from the top of each end....and compresses bewteen the centerlink body and the pitman and idler arms...damps that. Bear in mind....that in the beginning.....this nylon bushing...was attached as one piece to the packing on the inside of the centerlink. It shears off quickly. Then...as the nylon degrades to a powder from water absorption.......you an finally feel movement by moving by hand. But at that stage......the movemnet ....when the arm is removed for inspection....is actually about 1/2" at the tip on each end
. That translates to about 2-3" of slop in the center of the steering wheel.
(3) On each side of the car...you have the long control arms that attache to the ball joint at the outer end...and the "T" shaped subframe in teh center. You may notice....that where they mount with control arm bushings in the center....that the tube part of the arm, has "slipped" forward on its bushing and is rubbing against the yoke...or flange that the control arm is bolted to. This does not mean that the rubber in the bushings is shoy. It is so compresed...it rarely goes out. What has happend....is that the outer metal tube that the bushing cartridge has been cast into (then pressed into the arm)....has been compressed and the arm is slidng fore and aft. This.....itself....does not cause cluncking....but is part of the wear problem that does cause cluncking and slop.
From there....take a look toward the rear of that "T" shaped subframe. You will notice that a diagonal arm from eaxh balljoint end....mounts there in a socket with a pair of donut bushings. Those are called radius arms. the do-nut bushing may look ragged...but rarely are dead. But......when you remove the donuts for inspection.......there is a small plastic grommet....that the end of this arm goes into...so it does not rub metal to metal on the mounting ear. That grommet is then clamped between the two rubber do-nuts. That is called the centering ring. They disintegrate with age to teh point that some just disappear. Many people do not even know there is a part missing. That allows the radius arm to rattle up and down in the hole in theear. It causes clunking when you step on the brake....and on one side or the other, alternately...when you turn a corner. If not fixed, it will wear the hole in the mounting ear oval...destroying the subframe.
lastly, the strut bushing being shot (bonded rubber mainly)...can cause this sound...and looks of imprecision in steering. No so much as play in the steering wheel...but wandering. If you have the early 411/412 bushings wherin the bolt holes are symmetrically spaced, they are generally expensive, have the same factory flaw, and are very hard to get. Itsworth it to replace them with teh late model 412 assymettrical bolt pattern strut bushing/bearing. Those are thesame as late super and are much better. They are also cheap. You will have to slightly enlarge thecenter hole in teh body, and add two new bolt holes. Its worth it.
Also, sometimes dry sway bar bushing cause some "clonking noise as they try to twist. use some synthetic clear grease...or graphite. Ray
There are several things that cause the "clonking" sound. Each one ...by itself, does not cause huge handling issues. Generally each will cause a slow degradation.
(1) This is a kind of flaw many strut systems have. Its more caused by variations in the manufactured shape of the struts. The clonking can many times be caused by the bottom of the strut cartridge slipping from side to side...and whacking against the strut tube. It does not cause much in the way of straightline handling problems...mainly just transfer of vibration and a slight rattle at certain speeds, in the steering wheel...but in turns, (not even hard turns), but turning a corner at an intersection, it will "clonk"...and make the steering feel like the tire slipped over a groove in the pavement. Many people do not really even notice. It feels kinda like high sidewall squishy tires do.
Check the cap at the top of the strut tube for tightness. A really excellent fix is to remove the strut cartridge and wrap a band of thin rubber around it as a bushing. Use of an old inner tube for a bike works well.
This can be felt...by jacking the wheel up off the ground, inserting two fingers through the spring...one on the cap for staionary reference...and one one the strut rod. Then grab the spring and shake it around. Any movement will be felt.
(2) There are two parts...both of which will cause "clonking" alone...but are worse together. They also cause slop at the wheel and are responsible for the high speed shimmy syndrome.
This would be the idler arm bushing, and the centerlink. What happens, is the idler arm bushing rubber....was very weak. Its best to replace it with a solid bronze bushing. They made one for teh last year of teh super beetle. They are rare to find. But...they are simple and cheap to make at any machine shop. It is the same part number used on the super beetle. The rubber at the idler arm side gets ground away. This allows the side to side force, to be actually transmitted as an up and down force...much the same as the arm on an advance unit vacuum can will rise, instead of pull....when the hole in the arm gets worn oval. This can be felt...and seen..by jacking the entire front end off the ground....carefully....and getting underneath and having someone turn the wheel from lock to lock. The end of the arm attached to the centerlink will rise slightly. Usually.....the sound is the steering stabilizer knocking against the body or subframe as it pulls out of alignment.
The centerlink generally starts its self destruction from this movement. The centerlink contains bushed pins.....bushed with nylon packings.....not ball joints. This up and down pulling movement....other than side to side...grinds up the packings.
By hand movement...the centerlink will appear to have very little slack in it. This is because the top part of the nylon packing that protrudes from the top of each end....and compresses bewteen the centerlink body and the pitman and idler arms...damps that. Bear in mind....that in the beginning.....this nylon bushing...was attached as one piece to the packing on the inside of the centerlink. It shears off quickly. Then...as the nylon degrades to a powder from water absorption.......you an finally feel movement by moving by hand. But at that stage......the movemnet ....when the arm is removed for inspection....is actually about 1/2" at the tip on each end
. That translates to about 2-3" of slop in the center of the steering wheel.(3) On each side of the car...you have the long control arms that attache to the ball joint at the outer end...and the "T" shaped subframe in teh center. You may notice....that where they mount with control arm bushings in the center....that the tube part of the arm, has "slipped" forward on its bushing and is rubbing against the yoke...or flange that the control arm is bolted to. This does not mean that the rubber in the bushings is shoy. It is so compresed...it rarely goes out. What has happend....is that the outer metal tube that the bushing cartridge has been cast into (then pressed into the arm)....has been compressed and the arm is slidng fore and aft. This.....itself....does not cause cluncking....but is part of the wear problem that does cause cluncking and slop.
From there....take a look toward the rear of that "T" shaped subframe. You will notice that a diagonal arm from eaxh balljoint end....mounts there in a socket with a pair of donut bushings. Those are called radius arms. the do-nut bushing may look ragged...but rarely are dead. But......when you remove the donuts for inspection.......there is a small plastic grommet....that the end of this arm goes into...so it does not rub metal to metal on the mounting ear. That grommet is then clamped between the two rubber do-nuts. That is called the centering ring. They disintegrate with age to teh point that some just disappear. Many people do not even know there is a part missing. That allows the radius arm to rattle up and down in the hole in theear. It causes clunking when you step on the brake....and on one side or the other, alternately...when you turn a corner. If not fixed, it will wear the hole in the mounting ear oval...destroying the subframe.
lastly, the strut bushing being shot (bonded rubber mainly)...can cause this sound...and looks of imprecision in steering. No so much as play in the steering wheel...but wandering. If you have the early 411/412 bushings wherin the bolt holes are symmetrically spaced, they are generally expensive, have the same factory flaw, and are very hard to get. Itsworth it to replace them with teh late model 412 assymettrical bolt pattern strut bushing/bearing. Those are thesame as late super and are much better. They are also cheap. You will have to slightly enlarge thecenter hole in teh body, and add two new bolt holes. Its worth it.
Also, sometimes dry sway bar bushing cause some "clonking noise as they try to twist. use some synthetic clear grease...or graphite. Ray
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wallacehartley
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:54 am
I want to say congrats to vwfye on his new acquisition - it's a dream I have to find a good non-rusted 412 LE wagon in the back of a barn somewhere, unused for years but not far from being top-notch!!
Enjoy the car, and enjoy the tinkering that will absorb your mind and soul; and enjoy especially the pleasure that comes from reviving an example of one of the most serviceable, practical and plain civilised vehicles ever built.
I honestly believe that as fuel prices continue to rise we will see a re-surgence of interest in these cars as those who currently play around with less efficient marques see the common-sense in restoring type 4's.
I think doing now to the car what needs doing will pay dividends in the medium term as parts, plastics and petro-derivatives become ever-more hard to come by.
Good luck!!
Enjoy the car, and enjoy the tinkering that will absorb your mind and soul; and enjoy especially the pleasure that comes from reviving an example of one of the most serviceable, practical and plain civilised vehicles ever built.
I honestly believe that as fuel prices continue to rise we will see a re-surgence of interest in these cars as those who currently play around with less efficient marques see the common-sense in restoring type 4's.
I think doing now to the car what needs doing will pay dividends in the medium term as parts, plastics and petro-derivatives become ever-more hard to come by.
Good luck!!
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Just some questions. How bigare those wheels? The innerfronts and outer rears of the 411/412 are verytight. Being that this is a uni-body, youcan't just hammer in the inner shell of the body for clearance. Just some thoughts.
The other problem....will be moving the spring perch on the front struts, to get that low. Then...you will need to arrest the travel quicker (meaning stiffer springs). The front clearance will be under 4" at the pictured height. That is within the travel range of the struts during normal bottoming out. You will also need to possibly change the linkage points on the control arms, for the sway bar. It will bind. Possible that the control arms may as well.
For reference, my front end ...with 1" lower than factory height, and modified castor and 5.5"X15 rims...with 205-60-15's...is just about an inch higher than what you have pictured.
Be careful with raking towards the front. Though it looks nifty, and is better for castor angle it is poor for handling and hard on the strut bushings. Ray
The other problem....will be moving the spring perch on the front struts, to get that low. Then...you will need to arrest the travel quicker (meaning stiffer springs). The front clearance will be under 4" at the pictured height. That is within the travel range of the struts during normal bottoming out. You will also need to possibly change the linkage points on the control arms, for the sway bar. It will bind. Possible that the control arms may as well.
For reference, my front end ...with 1" lower than factory height, and modified castor and 5.5"X15 rims...with 205-60-15's...is just about an inch higher than what you have pictured.
Be careful with raking towards the front. Though it looks nifty, and is better for castor angle it is poor for handling and hard on the strut bushings. Ray
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vwfye
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 12:01 am
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ubercrap
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:00 pm
But 17 x 7" wheels must fit, because I've seen pictures of Type 4's running them. What about Neal Anderson's car? He was driving with 17x7" Porsche cup wheels on the track. Then there is that custom red 411 wagon with 17" TSW VX1's. For the most part 17" wheels do not come any narrower than 7" wide. The right 205/40 17" tires on 7" wheels will fit in surprising places. Because of the shape of the tire, I am guessing 205-40 17" tire on a 7" wide wheel will fit anywhere a 205-60 15" tire on a 5.5" or a 6" wide wheel.
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
That will look sweeet!
VWfye, that's gonna look sweet! Hope the wheels work out! I would be worried about the turning in the wheel welds. Have to email Neil Anderson if he used the same size setup! He's a great guy! Bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
205-40's ...are 41mm lower in side wall than a 205-60. Yes....they may just fit. But are you aware...that sidewall flex is an active part of the suspension....engineered into the equation at the start? Do you have any diea how stiff that will be? Many many articles have been donbe in excellence and European car concerning the needless reduction of sidewall without making other alterations. This would require a full custom front end, and strut tower upper and lower braces.
let me give you an example. Going to the gas struts for the first time on the front of my 412.....I also went to 205-55-15's.
They totalled....yes totalled.....a brand new pair of ball joints (two of the six new ones I had in my stash) in less than a week....they also broke the top stub that extends the shock to allow using the Audi cartridges. That means they snapped the pin off the top of the strut cartridge that was screwed into the stub. I barely got home. They damned near destroyed my kidneys too.
The multiple of stiffness when removing the sidewall flex.........is HUGE!
Yes, I can drop in a picture....but...at the moment....it would show you the WRONG THING. The front of my car right now....makes that one in the picture look positively SICK.....its so low to the ground. Do you know why? Because it has no engine in it. It has almost two inches of artificial lift in the back right now. That lowers the front by almost 3.5"....visually.
Right now,,, I can't slide under the spare tire recess past my left tit!
This is what I keep trying to relay to evryone. One inch....maybe 1.5"....drop in the front end...and 3 degrees more of castor.....and setting the front level to the rear....and going from the factory 75 series tire to a 60 series tire....is a HUGE amount of lowering. More than 99% of you will ever need....and about as much as the car can handle. If I can tie the rear down level for a picture in the next couple days i will get a pic.
Right now....if my suspension travels more than 3.75" in the front end....the inner sidewall will hit the inner forward fenderwell in any turn. fortunately....to get more than 3" of travel from the audi strut cartridge, with 1" extra preload on teh springs....takes practically driving off a cliff. Never done it yet. The 17,s will be a problem without a lot of work. Ray
let me give you an example. Going to the gas struts for the first time on the front of my 412.....I also went to 205-55-15's.
They totalled....yes totalled.....a brand new pair of ball joints (two of the six new ones I had in my stash) in less than a week....they also broke the top stub that extends the shock to allow using the Audi cartridges. That means they snapped the pin off the top of the strut cartridge that was screwed into the stub. I barely got home. They damned near destroyed my kidneys too.
The multiple of stiffness when removing the sidewall flex.........is HUGE!
Yes, I can drop in a picture....but...at the moment....it would show you the WRONG THING. The front of my car right now....makes that one in the picture look positively SICK.....its so low to the ground. Do you know why? Because it has no engine in it. It has almost two inches of artificial lift in the back right now. That lowers the front by almost 3.5"....visually.
Right now,,, I can't slide under the spare tire recess past my left tit!
This is what I keep trying to relay to evryone. One inch....maybe 1.5"....drop in the front end...and 3 degrees more of castor.....and setting the front level to the rear....and going from the factory 75 series tire to a 60 series tire....is a HUGE amount of lowering. More than 99% of you will ever need....and about as much as the car can handle. If I can tie the rear down level for a picture in the next couple days i will get a pic.
Right now....if my suspension travels more than 3.75" in the front end....the inner sidewall will hit the inner forward fenderwell in any turn. fortunately....to get more than 3" of travel from the audi strut cartridge, with 1" extra preload on teh springs....takes practically driving off a cliff. Never done it yet. The 17,s will be a problem without a lot of work. Ray
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
new to me 412
hi, mg , for the voltage regulator ,it is the same on type 2 for same years with alternator ,,,albert ,,,50.$
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vwfye
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 12:01 am
there are 2 ways to look at this...
1-- leave it sitting completely stock and not drive it because the stance/look to me is unbecoming. or...
2-- adjust the stance to something i desire and drive the car.
I prefer choice 2 myself, as i don't buy cars to let them sit. I am very interested in seeing your car as it sits Ray, because it might be visually what I am trying to go for. But as it is right now, my front bumper is almost 7" above the front bumper of my 73 squareback! And it looks really bad to me
1-- leave it sitting completely stock and not drive it because the stance/look to me is unbecoming. or...
2-- adjust the stance to something i desire and drive the car.
I prefer choice 2 myself, as i don't buy cars to let them sit. I am very interested in seeing your car as it sits Ray, because it might be visually what I am trying to go for. But as it is right now, my front bumper is almost 7" above the front bumper of my 73 squareback!
And it looks really bad to meNotchback mid-engine speedster
Little Giant Killer 3
Little Giant Killer 3