line drawing or pic
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vwfye
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 12:01 am
line drawing or pic
does someone have an exploded view of a line drawing or pic of the front strut/spring/cup assembly of the 74 412? i have something noodling in my head and i need a visual reference. thanks
Notchback mid-engine speedster
Little Giant Killer 3
Little Giant Killer 3
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vwfye
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 12:01 am
ray, what is the damping & rebound rates on the 412 front strut? thanks to a listee, i have the exploded view sent off to my buddy that does R&D for a major car manufacture... we are trying to come up with some ideas for the front end.
i find it interesting that VW went to the Tbone front end system when other manufactures went away from them in the early 70s.
i find it interesting that VW went to the Tbone front end system when other manufactures went away from them in the early 70s.
Notchback mid-engine speedster
Little Giant Killer 3
Little Giant Killer 3
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Vw actually went with this set up in the 60's (about 1966-67 for the start of the design...and production beginning in 1968) for this design. Its actually not bad at all...because they used a radius arm attached to the control arm...unlike the super beetle. It works well from an assembly standpoint, because the entire suspension is seperate from the chassis.
In most later strut cars, the chassis itself, is about 50% of the suspension. The only really good thing about the way they did this on the type 4...is that if you damage the suspension...but not the chassis...you can replace all of it...in under two hours.
The draw back of it, is that it made for very long suspension arms and high leverage. Add that to bushings that were a hair on the soft side....and parts wear quickly. It is also another sub-assembly in the suspension...that make for more $ in manufcturing.
There is little (until the 90's) that is excellent in what the rest of the manufacturers went to. Most Mcpherson strut suspensions that rely almost strictly on the chassis for strength...are mushy. Most when driven hard....require both upper and ower strut tower bracing. The rabbit, Golf, Jetta...for example...though the chassis as a whole is stiff.....as you see when it hikes the inside wheel when cornering.......the front suspension is a slush box. They used a triangulated, welded control arm (as most do)...which is good in that the arm itself is stiff......but the underpinnings without a subframe, do nothing but twist the front end.
What mods do you have in mind for the front end? Over the last 3 decades, I have worked out at least 3 methods for adding better cartridges and valving, have worked out much better teflon/urethane bushings for the radius arm.....and better strut bushings.
The weak links in the system...are the factory spring pressure in the ball joints (which themselves are bulletproof otherwise ....I just disected a pair)....and the centerlink....which I have worked out.
The things that should be left alone...are the springs. They are superb. They are quite progressive...and have an upper end rating for load, about 350 lbs higher than what the front end is when empty (done this way for that huge trunk).
I will have to dig for the ratings. Years ago I had them somewhere. They dropped off the edge of my "plate"...because changing the springs is not necessary.....as I found once I levelled the car....adjusted the castor and camber....and got much better strut cartridges. They are soft enough at the first two inches of compression to easily absorb any amount of lowering you can get away with..without making the car undrivable. That is...as long as you get into better shock valving than what stock had. Ray
In most later strut cars, the chassis itself, is about 50% of the suspension. The only really good thing about the way they did this on the type 4...is that if you damage the suspension...but not the chassis...you can replace all of it...in under two hours.
The draw back of it, is that it made for very long suspension arms and high leverage. Add that to bushings that were a hair on the soft side....and parts wear quickly. It is also another sub-assembly in the suspension...that make for more $ in manufcturing.
There is little (until the 90's) that is excellent in what the rest of the manufacturers went to. Most Mcpherson strut suspensions that rely almost strictly on the chassis for strength...are mushy. Most when driven hard....require both upper and ower strut tower bracing. The rabbit, Golf, Jetta...for example...though the chassis as a whole is stiff.....as you see when it hikes the inside wheel when cornering.......the front suspension is a slush box. They used a triangulated, welded control arm (as most do)...which is good in that the arm itself is stiff......but the underpinnings without a subframe, do nothing but twist the front end.
What mods do you have in mind for the front end? Over the last 3 decades, I have worked out at least 3 methods for adding better cartridges and valving, have worked out much better teflon/urethane bushings for the radius arm.....and better strut bushings.
The weak links in the system...are the factory spring pressure in the ball joints (which themselves are bulletproof otherwise ....I just disected a pair)....and the centerlink....which I have worked out.
The things that should be left alone...are the springs. They are superb. They are quite progressive...and have an upper end rating for load, about 350 lbs higher than what the front end is when empty (done this way for that huge trunk).
I will have to dig for the ratings. Years ago I had them somewhere. They dropped off the edge of my "plate"...because changing the springs is not necessary.....as I found once I levelled the car....adjusted the castor and camber....and got much better strut cartridges. They are soft enough at the first two inches of compression to easily absorb any amount of lowering you can get away with..without making the car undrivable. That is...as long as you get into better shock valving than what stock had. Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
I have no idea of axactly how or where to post to this forum. Never done it. I can also zip them to anyone and everyone personnal e-mail...just drop me aine. Ray-
vwfye
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 12:01 am
Ray, if you could email them to vwfye@charter.net that would be great!
Notchback mid-engine speedster
Little Giant Killer 3
Little Giant Killer 3
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Ray Has a line drawing and pics?
Ray has a line drawing and Pics? Are they available anywhere?? bill 