Hey what do you expect from your car' performance and drivability?
Do you want a daily runner, daily driver, highway cruizer, city/hwy driver, rally car,week end racer?? What is the expectation and the realist performance and economics and drivability? Is it cheaper to run dual carbs. or injection? Better to go bigger brakes? bill
WHat do you expect from your car???
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
what do you expect
hi, vw bill , my 412 -73 wagon , geeve me full satisfaction from last spring , for a good dailay driver with original équippement , and i make every day 100-125 miles a day in the city and autoroute , it is économic car with the 1700cc , it is not a bomb but just fair and compétitive with modern car , one good thing if you doo your normal mintenance , you have safe car , if you compare with the modern ,,vw ,,with fréqent électric problem ,,, alb.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
My first car.....was a 411 4 door. I drove it daily for years. The 412 I have right now...was my sole source of transport from about 1995 until 2000...when I bought my Saab 900. It averaged about 1000 miles a week. When I get it back on the road...I will probably drive it 2-3 days a week. On weekends...it will be the road trip mobile. I trust the open highway more than the congested streets of Dallas.
In its last configuration....it did 0-60 in about 9.0 seconds or sometimes a hair better depending on the weather. It also handled far better than the Saab. It did about 25-27 mpg in teh city depending on weather....and about 32-34 on teh highway. My new engine will be much better.
Outside of occasional reliability problems in the 4 speed (which I have worked out)....it was rock solid. It starts on the first rev from 10F to 110F Thats what I expect from my 412.
Ray
In its last configuration....it did 0-60 in about 9.0 seconds or sometimes a hair better depending on the weather. It also handled far better than the Saab. It did about 25-27 mpg in teh city depending on weather....and about 32-34 on teh highway. My new engine will be much better.
Outside of occasional reliability problems in the 4 speed (which I have worked out)....it was rock solid. It starts on the first rev from 10F to 110F Thats what I expect from my 412.
Ray
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
So would the setup be 1700 1800 2000??? Fi or dual carbed?
How much are you working with engine wise? 85 hp less tuning loss and weather/wear? Brakes stock or sweet disc mod? Ride height and suspension? Lowered and upgraded or stock mod? Extras, AC and stereo and ride height systems? So you have faith in the long trips or driver and what is the min. you carry in parts or tools and extras? Just a AAA card or some repair options or portable garage? Sounds like a normal long cruize range but what speed do you want cruizing to be?
bill
How much are you working with engine wise? 85 hp less tuning loss and weather/wear? Brakes stock or sweet disc mod? Ride height and suspension? Lowered and upgraded or stock mod? Extras, AC and stereo and ride height systems? So you have faith in the long trips or driver and what is the min. you carry in parts or tools and extras? Just a AAA card or some repair options or portable garage? Sounds like a normal long cruize range but what speed do you want cruizing to be?
bill
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
I'm building a '73 wagon for a daily driver and expect:
* Reasonable comfort for a 30-60 minute freeway commute -- decent A/C, heat, seats
* Good mileage (30mpg +) with power to pass
* Dependable operation with reasonable maintentance
* Nice suspension and brakes for weekend fun
* Room to pack gear for mountain biking, camping, etc.
* Fun building/driving something different
Plans include:
* Upgraded disk brakes front/rear
* Rebuilt suspension with mods for castor, lower front
* 16" or 17" wheels
* Modern FI, 2L+
* Rebuilt automatic
* New A/C, rebuilt heater, new seats, basic stereo
* Basic repaint, tinted windows, dechrome, clean interior
* 2 year project
Enjoying the ride,
Bill
* Reasonable comfort for a 30-60 minute freeway commute -- decent A/C, heat, seats
* Good mileage (30mpg +) with power to pass
* Dependable operation with reasonable maintentance
* Nice suspension and brakes for weekend fun
* Room to pack gear for mountain biking, camping, etc.
* Fun building/driving something different
Plans include:
* Upgraded disk brakes front/rear
* Rebuilt suspension with mods for castor, lower front
* 16" or 17" wheels
* Modern FI, 2L+
* Rebuilt automatic
* New A/C, rebuilt heater, new seats, basic stereo
* Basic repaint, tinted windows, dechrome, clean interior
* 2 year project
Enjoying the ride,
Bill
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
As far as whats in it.....I like the 1.7L....always have. My last 1.7L put out 102Hp on the Dyno. But that was just maxed. I have no idea what it put out at the rear wheels....but probably about 90 hp would be a good etsimnate.
It took a LOT of tweeks and work...but the true stumbling block to make it really dependable was the exhaust. I id not dyno the engine until it was over 10k milles. I broke it in well...and did a lot of FI and ignition tweeking in that time.
What I mean by dependable ....is not a mehanical issue. It was a tuning issue. It was very sensitive to valve adjustment and weather changes. It was tuned that tigh. After working out the fuel pressure stability issues..it ran great.
This engine will incorporate everything I learned on that one and better ignition and exhaust....and a few tweeks more. I don't expect to get more than I got out of the last one. Right at 100Hp. But it will be rock solid.
I am building the air conditioning now. It will be ceiling mounted just behind the drivers seat. I am fabbing a two stage condensor for both sides of the front end for the small spaces be hind the valance on each side of the spare tire recess.
As for brakes......I love the work some of the people are doing in this forumj...its top notch, but a lot of it is overkill. There is a lot of upgrading that can be done to the 411/412 brakes. Four piston calipers are very nice but just more than is required . The car is just too light.
Even stopping from 70, 80 or 100 mph....and I have done all those speeds ....in a 411/412...can be greatly shortened by a just a few changes. I agree on teh ventilated rotors. Just cross drilling with very careful pad selection can drop a good 30 feet from the panic stop characteristics of the 411/412. Adding upgraded master cylinder and teflon stainless lines really helps a lot. The rear brake drums are huge on this car. Discs will will generally not exceed them by much...but...discs are much better for adjustment and do not fade. I will be installing rear discs on this one. They are also lighter. My 412 as it is stops a good 30% better than stock. Even in racing....with the light front end of the 412....the problem I see is that a 4 piston caliper will be prone to wheel lock in hard braking.
One of the best upgrades for this car is a larger rear sway bar. The handling of my 412 just blows away my saab. Ray
It took a LOT of tweeks and work...but the true stumbling block to make it really dependable was the exhaust. I id not dyno the engine until it was over 10k milles. I broke it in well...and did a lot of FI and ignition tweeking in that time.
What I mean by dependable ....is not a mehanical issue. It was a tuning issue. It was very sensitive to valve adjustment and weather changes. It was tuned that tigh. After working out the fuel pressure stability issues..it ran great.
This engine will incorporate everything I learned on that one and better ignition and exhaust....and a few tweeks more. I don't expect to get more than I got out of the last one. Right at 100Hp. But it will be rock solid.
I am building the air conditioning now. It will be ceiling mounted just behind the drivers seat. I am fabbing a two stage condensor for both sides of the front end for the small spaces be hind the valance on each side of the spare tire recess.
As for brakes......I love the work some of the people are doing in this forumj...its top notch, but a lot of it is overkill. There is a lot of upgrading that can be done to the 411/412 brakes. Four piston calipers are very nice but just more than is required . The car is just too light.
Even stopping from 70, 80 or 100 mph....and I have done all those speeds ....in a 411/412...can be greatly shortened by a just a few changes. I agree on teh ventilated rotors. Just cross drilling with very careful pad selection can drop a good 30 feet from the panic stop characteristics of the 411/412. Adding upgraded master cylinder and teflon stainless lines really helps a lot. The rear brake drums are huge on this car. Discs will will generally not exceed them by much...but...discs are much better for adjustment and do not fade. I will be installing rear discs on this one. They are also lighter. My 412 as it is stops a good 30% better than stock. Even in racing....with the light front end of the 412....the problem I see is that a 4 piston caliper will be prone to wheel lock in hard braking.
One of the best upgrades for this car is a larger rear sway bar. The handling of my 412 just blows away my saab. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4568
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
A LARGER rear sway bar? Hmmm, from what car comes that one? Do tell me more!raygreenwood wrote: One of the best upgrades for this car is a larger rear sway bar.
Tnx,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
what doexpect
yes , wally, i look on the web for to find a good replacement for this sway bar , and i thing the sway bar for the vw westfalia camper can be good for the 412 we can buy this kit in many place on the web. i,dt know if RAY is on this oppignion ,,,alb.
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
what do you expect
hi, ray , what do you thing of that , ( for to boots the H.P. and gaz millage ) i have frend with westi. 1700cc and he put the électric valve for to mix the wather and air , and he said the motor take -25% of gas and he has more power and afther 200kmiles he open the head for to see and the valve and piston head was clean samething a mirror glass , no carbon or dirth plus he do the test for pollution and with no catalisor on this motor it is many point % onder the spécification and he said me with betther ajusment he can come at ,,o,, pollution , complet combustion ,,,what do you thing of that ,, i see the instalation , and he have 4 small 1/8 plastic pipe at 4" of the spark plug for the wather ,very simple , but the ajusment is complicate for the perfection ,,,alb.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Wally...with all of your 412 parts laying around...I know you already have what you need... 
.
Someone made a good point in an article a long...long time ago. That was, that car manufracturers (and most especially in Europe)...went to a lot of trouble to "engineer" proper sway bars for their vehicles. Everything goes into the design process from spring and shock valving rates, to tires, weight etc. Their point in this article...was that just slaving on a "thicker" or longer bar....which may have a wildly different rate of compression or rebound...could dangerously upset vehicle handling. OK.....I understand that. So just "doubling" the bar diameter......won't just give you twice what you already had.
But....what the 412 already had...was nicely balanced for what it needed....just a little lacking in load control. So......I slaved two of them together.
In fact,what I had collected laying around....was an early sedan 17mm rearsway bar. Thats the "straight bar". I also had a later 15mm bar that has the "cranked" area on the left side. I have heard different opinions on why it is cranked. They both make sense. One opinion is that it was access for something like AC lines. The other is that by lengthening the bar ....that can tune its progressiveness.
What I did....was stack them on top of each other. I got a set of new clamps from a standard beetle (actually two sets)that are used to clamp the beetle sway bar to the torsion arm. I discarded the rubber and fashioned new bushings from block Urethane. There is only one bar clamped to the body with Urethane bushings....but the other bar is clamped to the one on top, just under by about 13mm and just rearward by about 13mm.
It retains the same level and range of progressiveness.....but is twice the tension. It works really nice. I'm talking a REAL handling difference.I clipped 1.5" from each end of the cranked bar on the bottom.
I will be making stronger outer links soon. The front bar..because of the lighter weight...is just about right...but could use some better links to the control arms.....maybe just urethane versions fo what it has. Ray
.Someone made a good point in an article a long...long time ago. That was, that car manufracturers (and most especially in Europe)...went to a lot of trouble to "engineer" proper sway bars for their vehicles. Everything goes into the design process from spring and shock valving rates, to tires, weight etc. Their point in this article...was that just slaving on a "thicker" or longer bar....which may have a wildly different rate of compression or rebound...could dangerously upset vehicle handling. OK.....I understand that. So just "doubling" the bar diameter......won't just give you twice what you already had.
But....what the 412 already had...was nicely balanced for what it needed....just a little lacking in load control. So......I slaved two of them together.
In fact,what I had collected laying around....was an early sedan 17mm rearsway bar. Thats the "straight bar". I also had a later 15mm bar that has the "cranked" area on the left side. I have heard different opinions on why it is cranked. They both make sense. One opinion is that it was access for something like AC lines. The other is that by lengthening the bar ....that can tune its progressiveness.
What I did....was stack them on top of each other. I got a set of new clamps from a standard beetle (actually two sets)that are used to clamp the beetle sway bar to the torsion arm. I discarded the rubber and fashioned new bushings from block Urethane. There is only one bar clamped to the body with Urethane bushings....but the other bar is clamped to the one on top, just under by about 13mm and just rearward by about 13mm.
It retains the same level and range of progressiveness.....but is twice the tension. It works really nice. I'm talking a REAL handling difference.I clipped 1.5" from each end of the cranked bar on the bottom.
I will be making stronger outer links soon. The front bar..because of the lighter weight...is just about right...but could use some better links to the control arms.....maybe just urethane versions fo what it has. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4568
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Well Ray, I actually have very few extra 412 parts around, other than an extra set of struts and some rubber.. 
Thanks for sharing the rear sway bar idea. The idea of Albert is a very interesting one as well! I rather have one thicker bar then 2 clamped together, but hey, with our extinct cars and parts, its the result that counts right?
Greets,
Walter
Thanks for sharing the rear sway bar idea. The idea of Albert is a very interesting one as well! I rather have one thicker bar then 2 clamped together, but hey, with our extinct cars and parts, its the result that counts right?
Greets,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
what do you expect
hi, wally , pélican porshe parts , they sale a sway bar kit for the 914 ,, samething for ,,auto attlenta porshe parts,, and ,,bus depot ,,sale that for the vw campers ,,, i thing you can find a good information there for the sway bar dimention ,,,alb.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yes...so would I...but and this is the problem.....if the thicker bar is not calibrated to the right degree of progressiveness as the supsension is set up to...it is an easy way to roll the car. Very easy.
The first thicker bar I actually slaved on was from an Audi 5000. It was a bear to get on with any useful sort of mounting. Its roll rate was waaaay too far off.
Because our car is relatively light, you must get way out on the edge of a turn before it exerts significant influence on the thicker bar of the Audi. That means that through moderate speeds and curves...it handles great.....but thats because its so stiff it moves not at all.
Get higher speeds and sharper curves and you finally get enough enertia to "move" the bar. The reaction of the other end of a too stiff or miss proportioned bar....is what will kill you. When you finally get one end to move....the other end will over compensate.....and can cause you to lose control., The rear will definately steer the front. Its not as simple as just finding a thicker bar that can fit. Its spring rate must be calibrated for the cars enertial points in handling. Ray
The first thicker bar I actually slaved on was from an Audi 5000. It was a bear to get on with any useful sort of mounting. Its roll rate was waaaay too far off.
Because our car is relatively light, you must get way out on the edge of a turn before it exerts significant influence on the thicker bar of the Audi. That means that through moderate speeds and curves...it handles great.....but thats because its so stiff it moves not at all.
Get higher speeds and sharper curves and you finally get enough enertia to "move" the bar. The reaction of the other end of a too stiff or miss proportioned bar....is what will kill you. When you finally get one end to move....the other end will over compensate.....and can cause you to lose control., The rear will definately steer the front. Its not as simple as just finding a thicker bar that can fit. Its spring rate must be calibrated for the cars enertial points in handling. Ray
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SureFit Travis
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:23 pm
Okay.....whoa !
Ray: (now, remember that I'm relatively new to the type-4's again) what do you mean by "occasional reliability problems in the 4 speed"?
What sort of things can I expect to encounter with this 412 I've picked up? I would imagine this has been covered many times in the forums already (so perhaps some tips on key-words to use in the site-search?).
I just want to keep myself prepared for any surprises!
Travis
Oh ! I've been meaning to ask you Ray; how have you been doing with your development of the replacement MPS copper diaphrams? I recently went out to all of my old type-3 parts cars (and one 411), and out of all the cars I had, I only found 3 MPS's in the whole lot.
I have the following:
-Bosch 0 280 100 007 (VW 311 906 051 C) out of a type 3 dated 08/69 -- cracked diaphram
-Bosch 0280 100 003 (VW 022 906 051) out of a 71 411 -- pumped 20lbs, loses 5 lbs after 120 seconds
-Bosch 0 280 100 106 (VW 311 906 051 E) out of a type 3 ('73) -- holds 20lbs indefinitely.
If you are still intending on making these diaphrams, I'd like to be added to the contact list when you are satisfied with the results. -- Thanks ! --
Ray: (now, remember that I'm relatively new to the type-4's again) what do you mean by "occasional reliability problems in the 4 speed"?
What sort of things can I expect to encounter with this 412 I've picked up? I would imagine this has been covered many times in the forums already (so perhaps some tips on key-words to use in the site-search?).
I just want to keep myself prepared for any surprises!
Travis
Oh ! I've been meaning to ask you Ray; how have you been doing with your development of the replacement MPS copper diaphrams? I recently went out to all of my old type-3 parts cars (and one 411), and out of all the cars I had, I only found 3 MPS's in the whole lot.
I have the following:
-Bosch 0 280 100 007 (VW 311 906 051 C) out of a type 3 dated 08/69 -- cracked diaphram
-Bosch 0280 100 003 (VW 022 906 051) out of a 71 411 -- pumped 20lbs, loses 5 lbs after 120 seconds
-Bosch 0 280 100 106 (VW 311 906 051 E) out of a type 3 ('73) -- holds 20lbs indefinitely.
If you are still intending on making these diaphrams, I'd like to be added to the contact list when you are satisfied with the results. -- Thanks ! --
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Just looking for a weekend off at this point. The diphrams are the first on my list of projects. I am at the point where I can press the diaphrams....but can only offer a pictorial of how you install them on your owne center section removed from your old diaphram.
The 4 speed. I have written a bunch about the problems. This is a long running...excellent gearbox. Very light and near perfect gear ratios for the type 4. It does have a couple of wear issues that will plague ALL type 4 four speeds.
The first part of course is synchros. You can't get them.....as far as I have seen. But as they generally wear little, I am working on a permanet fix to get back teh tolerance axially on teh shaft to bring them back into operable range of the hubs. Thats the main problem. As they wear, that gap as seen in teh book between the synchro ring gear teeth and teh synchro hub gear teeth dimenishes. What this causes....is float. The synchro ring will float backward away from the synchro hub while driving. That means when you want to shift...it must traverse teh extra distance ...while staying aligned...and do its little wiggle and spin while seating and aligning.....all in the blink of an eye that is too short for all of that. What I am working on is a shim behind the synchro ring to keep it within stock proximity to the hub even though the gap has diminished. It should work.
The other problem...is what generally destroys the type 4 four speed. The counter gear shaft needle bearings have very poor oiling. They crap out and gall both the shaft and the inside bore on the counter gear at each end. They will run seemingly forever this way with only a minor howl. But when teh mis alignment of the gear cluster gets to great...it ends up shredding the teeth on the counter gear cluster. Since you cannot buy new ones and the one from another set cannot be swapped in...that transfer section is now screwed. The fix is easy. I have a part number for a readily available needle bearing that has an outer race/shell...very similar to the throwout bearing in the end of teh crank. This fixes the galling on the inside of the gear. But you must make a new counter shaft. This is easy. Get a piece of 18mm hardened shafting (available at bearing dealers. Cut to length, and grind a 15mm step in teh end at a machine shop. Put a threaded hole for a puller in the other...and you are done.
Lastly....and this should be done on all 4 speeds...they have a very high spyder gear ratio in teh differential. Totally unique...no parts. What happens is that the spacer ring on teh outside end of each CV hub shaft, right inside the oil seal on each side of the differential...gets worn. Also...inside the differential...the .010" shim that is between each side gear stub shaft and teh diff body..gets worn. The slack that ensues will destroy thespyders and the entire differential. Just take it open and renew teh shims. Ray
The 4 speed. I have written a bunch about the problems. This is a long running...excellent gearbox. Very light and near perfect gear ratios for the type 4. It does have a couple of wear issues that will plague ALL type 4 four speeds.
The first part of course is synchros. You can't get them.....as far as I have seen. But as they generally wear little, I am working on a permanet fix to get back teh tolerance axially on teh shaft to bring them back into operable range of the hubs. Thats the main problem. As they wear, that gap as seen in teh book between the synchro ring gear teeth and teh synchro hub gear teeth dimenishes. What this causes....is float. The synchro ring will float backward away from the synchro hub while driving. That means when you want to shift...it must traverse teh extra distance ...while staying aligned...and do its little wiggle and spin while seating and aligning.....all in the blink of an eye that is too short for all of that. What I am working on is a shim behind the synchro ring to keep it within stock proximity to the hub even though the gap has diminished. It should work.
The other problem...is what generally destroys the type 4 four speed. The counter gear shaft needle bearings have very poor oiling. They crap out and gall both the shaft and the inside bore on the counter gear at each end. They will run seemingly forever this way with only a minor howl. But when teh mis alignment of the gear cluster gets to great...it ends up shredding the teeth on the counter gear cluster. Since you cannot buy new ones and the one from another set cannot be swapped in...that transfer section is now screwed. The fix is easy. I have a part number for a readily available needle bearing that has an outer race/shell...very similar to the throwout bearing in the end of teh crank. This fixes the galling on the inside of the gear. But you must make a new counter shaft. This is easy. Get a piece of 18mm hardened shafting (available at bearing dealers. Cut to length, and grind a 15mm step in teh end at a machine shop. Put a threaded hole for a puller in the other...and you are done.
Lastly....and this should be done on all 4 speeds...they have a very high spyder gear ratio in teh differential. Totally unique...no parts. What happens is that the spacer ring on teh outside end of each CV hub shaft, right inside the oil seal on each side of the differential...gets worn. Also...inside the differential...the .010" shim that is between each side gear stub shaft and teh diff body..gets worn. The slack that ensues will destroy thespyders and the entire differential. Just take it open and renew teh shims. Ray