091/094 tranny to 412

[Wally]

Func,

Did you already notice that the manual type 4 gearbox sits not at a rectangle, but is positioned more foreward? This means that originally the axles are at a forward angle (and quite a large agle too!). It als means the axles are probably longer than when they would have been when in a 'normal position'.
So, depending on position of your 091 box (is that a 6-rib?, what year? T2 or T3), you can play some with axle length imo.

Greets,
Walter

[func412]

Yes, I have noticed that it´s guite much forward. Lets see how much the engine will reposition if I place this box where the CV hubs has originally located.

This is 6 rib 091 from 1982 T3 vanagon (...or is aircooled vanagon T25?). Transmission code is DK. This box has original km 90 000.

I´m also thinking a possibility to make side shifter work using wire cables.

OT: Be welcome to Finland to see our car and other racing VW's next summer:

[raygreenwood]

Wally...good catch on teh angle of the shafts. Forgot about that.

Func412....No. Actually...the rear trailing arm mounts are BOLTED into the slots . They actually slide when you loosen the nuts on the forward side of the rear trailing beam. The slots are hidden behind the gusset/washer plates under the nuts that mount the trailing arm pivot sockets.
Also...if your shafts are assymetrical in length...then you have automatic drive shafts from a type 3. If you had a standard 4 speed in your 412...you have equal length shafts. The four speed is mounted off center so the shafts are equal length. I rotate their positions from side to side every year.

I also believe that the automatic 411/412 shafts are equal length...because when Iconverted both cars from automatic to 4 speed ..I do not remember having to swap any shafts out.

The rear beam and trailing arms are slotted so that the spread lengths of the VC joints can be adjusted to be precisely in teh middle of their wear areas on the ball cage. This is a very advanced car as VW's go.

In one of my books is an obscure note about a VW tool used to center the trailing arms with refernce to the centerline on the gear box. It is a telescopic piece of pipe with a clamp that mounts to teh tranny and butts up against each outer hub on the stub axles in the trailing arms. Ray

[func412]

Thanks Ray!

Lot of new info to me. That explains everything what I´ve been wondering about the transmission off center issue. Thanks again.

But why it is also installed so much forward?

[ubercrap]

Thought I'd chime in on one of the issues here- I can't remember precisely where (maybe in the conversion perversions forum?), that it is not only not harmful to run the driveshafts so that the CVs are at an angle, but actually desirable up to a point. IIRC when the CV is doing its thing distributing power at an angle, the wear is distributed across a wider range of surfaces than if it was completely static and lined up perfectly straight. This also facilitates grease moving around in there to help keep the parts lubricated. This is just what I read, so confirm it for yourself, but it sounds plausible!

[raygreenwood]

Ah...here is another interesting thread. It begs the question...of why you believe it is farther forward than it hould be?

I have written of this numerous times....but its worth re-explaination.
Both the type 003 (automatic) and the 004 (411/412 four speed) are unique in layout as compared to other VW aircooled transmissions. They also share a problem....that was worked out in the method of installation in the car.
Both of these transmissions have a very long internal drive shaft. The 004 has a mainshaft that is just a bit less than 4' long It runs from the pilot bushing in the crank all the way to the big ball bearing in the forward end of the unit and has a lock nut under the screw cap in the tail cone.
The automatic has a similar shaft that drives the oil pump running from the torque converter to the oil pump in the front end of the transfer case.

Both of these shafts (manual and automatic) are subject to very fast and ugly wear when the transmission case is subjected to stress from both ends. It is noted in all of the manuals that there should be no force of any kind put on the tail housing. This is whay the automatic and teh four speed both use the identical type of tail cone mount. It is not a mount at all....it is simply a bump stop. The tail end of both trannys must free-float. All of the load of the transmission is actually held by the cross bar assembly at the bellhousing/engine case parting line.

Also, there is a fairly precise adjustment process for the centralizing of the entire engine and drivetrain. Without doing the alignment process...you get poor shifting, vibration that is transmitted via the flange for the rear bump stop and relatively fast wear of the rear hanger bar bushings.
Its easy to do (the alignment)...but the only description of it is in the clymer manual. That would be the early one...with the animated or "drawn" rendering on the cover of a 412 on the highway/autobahn with a happy family on vacation.

there are actually 3 axis of adjustment available in teh chassis andsuspension bars for teh engine mounts. Ray

[func412]

The four speed is mounted off center so the shafts are equal length.

Doesn´t this mean, that the engine is also off center mounted?

[raygreenwood]

Yes, actually it does mean that...although I have not measured to see exactly how much. One thing I have noticed...in all of the many times I have had the engine out of the car....and as I am re-installing it....that the gap between sheet metal and body opening is always wider on one side of the bay. The right side ....I think.

And...if you start slewing the engine around by the rear hanger bar.......and manage to get that gap even, you always end up with serious shifter adjustment problems.

A whole lot of the shifting problems that people experience in the 411/412 are directly due to shifter adjustment.....and the reason why the shifter adjustment (as detailed in the manual)....does not work too well...is usually due to the fact that the drivetrain package is not properly aligned.

I know how to make the shifting precise on the stock shift linkage. It takes a bit of work between both teh driveline alignment (thats the easiest part)...and correcting wear and flaws in the shift ball coupling toward the rear of the car.

If we could go to a standard shift coupling like the early type 1 or type 3...the need for drivetrain alignment would not be a big deal at all on teh 411/412.
The problem with this...is that the type 1 shift coupler does not generate enough "arc". I'm working on it though. Ray

[func412]

The shifter issue with 091 side shift could be solved like this:

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/cableshifter.htm

The bonus is the shifter can be mounted closer to steering wheel.

[raygreenwood]

Very interesting. Also...that mount in the top picture is almost precisely what the short throw shift unit looks like that you can fab for a 412. It will be a bit shorter in our car...but its really just a bolt on deck that allows you to take teh shift point and put it up higher in relation to teh shifter ball socket. This changes the fulcrum point. Berg used to sell kits for the type 1 this way. You could have as much as a 75% shorter shifter throw this way or anything in between. Ray

[func412]

Here it is.

091 early vanagon gearbox and 412 gearbox side to side. What do you say?

The gearbox is 2-3 cm longer and 3 cm wider measured from top of the gearbox where the hubs are supposed to muont (I didnt have 412 hubs installed).

To me it looks like this tranny wants to be mounted into my 412

[MGVWfan]

Beefy transaxle!

That side-shifter on the Vanagon tranny is screaming for some Heim joints and a couple well-designed bellcranks and pushrods to make it happy in a T4. If you want some ideas, take a look at the shift mechanism in a MoPar L-Body (Omni/Horizon/Turismo) next time you're in the junkyard, they had a far worse shifter-to-trans linkage to work out, and they got it to work OK...well, "OK" when the original stuff was replaced by Heim joints, that is.

[func412]

Beefy indeed.

Thanks for this advice! Unfortunately in europe (at least in Finland) those Mopar models are unfamiliar (at least to me). I must admit, even I have had one US car (GMC Jimmy 4x4 6,2litre Diesel) , I have not many experiences of US cars.

I try first to use Toyota cable shifter to make it work and to relocate the sifter closer to steering wheel. That feels like suitable solution to me and side shift shouldn´t be a problem...let´s see.

This car is about to change into mutant 412. By far, I´ve used Volvo, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Fiat, Porsche and MB parts. This is kind of cross-disciplinary research of reusing serial production car parts to get more performance.

[Wally]

How will you deal with the original fitment of the nosecone in the cross-beam?

The fact that the Vanagon tranny is also mounted (on the other side) on top of the bellhousing, is a nice feature on the other hand

[func412]

I have no idea how to fit it in.. yet. We´ll see that later.

I´m planning to raise whole rear transaxle system to lower chassis and to get original wheel angles and space under the engine. within this process I try to figure out some way to mount the nosecone into the cross-beam.

The fact that the Vanagon tranny is also mounted (on the other side) on top of the bellhousing, is a nice feature on the other hand

Yes, that really is! The distance between bolt holes are different, but that is not a problem.