Hi guys
I'm too annoyed to crawl under the car and have a look at a the moment as I have just driven the last couple of miles home with only 3rd and 4th gear.
I can not find 1st or 2nd and the area where second should be just grinds when I attempt to select it, first is no where to be found. However I could find reverse to park the car
I tried to find the gears with the engine of at home and I can't seem to find 1st or 2nd like this either.
What is the most likely diagnosis as the Haynes manual is woefully inadequate for this problem...
By the way it is a 4 speed manual 1972 (late) 412 Variant and when I have calmed down enough to have a look where shall I start?
Lost half my gears!!!
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
If you can't find the gears even when teh car is stopped....you either have serious shifter problems...usually at the ball and socket linkage in the rear...serious misalignment of the transmission and engine ....which can be caused y one or more rear or center engine mounts being totally shot.....or it can be more serious like a cracked sliding dog, bent synchro or damaged fork or shift rod.
The first thing iwould do is jack it up....drain the oil....get a pan and pull the plate on te hbottom. Let us know what you see.
Having been through these transmissions...there ar a lot of little things and bog things that it could be....but lets take it slow.
It could also be a clutch going out. Ray
The first thing iwould do is jack it up....drain the oil....get a pan and pull the plate on te hbottom. Let us know what you see.
Having been through these transmissions...there ar a lot of little things and bog things that it could be....but lets take it slow.
It could also be a clutch going out. Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yes...it will be expensive....in the respect that there are "0"...yes ZERO spare parts available for this transmission....anywhere in the world...period. I have looked long and hard. They just are not available.
Just preparing you. This transmission shares a grand total of about six pieces with any transmission VW, Porsche or Audi ever built. They are also things that will not generally help you. These are things like differential sde bearings, differential side seals, the adjusting rings for the diff bearing bring load...and very possibly a second gear syncro ring with one year model of an early 911....and I can't verify that.
That being said, all differntial and pinion shaft bearings, main shaft seal, side seals and o-rings, countershaft needle bearings and maybe one or two other needle bearings can be sourced at most bearing and seal houses.
Synchros.....no. Gears...no. Main shafts and shafts...no.
These were unique to this transmission. In fact the transmission is a totally unique design and shares not even configuration with anything in any aircooled vehicle.
And...that being said....is a great gearbox. But...it has some quirks...all of which will result in its death if not takencare of.
Keep in good chear. In general...not being able to find gears is not generally a death sentence. If it is grinding or howling...preceding not being able to find the gears.....that may be a differnt story.
You will need to disassemble it. When you get to this tsage let me know and I can guide you through it.
Trust me when I tell you that if you want this thing to run for a long time....yoy needto plan on replacing the bearings in the final drive. While in there...you will need to reshim the spacer between the stub axles in teh differential. The wear of the spacer and shims in these trannys is one of the two things that will...and always eventually does....kill all of these transmissions. The differntial side gears are very long toothed and very high ration for very quick acceleration in turns. They are different from any I have seen in ACVW's.....which means also that they are irreplacable.
The problem is that the barrel spacer between the side gears in the differntial wears to quickly letting teh side shafts float. This is also partly due to wear at the stel spacer ring at the outboard CV flanges. The gears slide back and forth penetrating too deeply...wearing the gears...and shattering them. Simply reshim them...and they can last forever.
Next....is the counter shaft gear cluster. this part alon is poorly lubricated by design. It can start howling. When it does....it can do so for 30k miles or so and never get worse in sound quality. But.....what is happening is that the needle bearings are shot...and it is misaligning the gear cluster . Not only will it wear out all of the gears..eventually it will strip the teeth from 4th gear. When this happens it is all over.
All of the transmissions of this type will lose th counter shaft needle bearings. Problem is..even if they are just scofred....they score the inner shaft. You ned to have a new one made. It os very very simple and costs maybe $60 at any decnt machine shop. The needle bearings will have scored the inside bore of the counter gear as well. You can replace them with cartridge type needle bearings (I can get you a part #)...for about $40. Change the counter shaft thrust bearingsm flip the third gear bushing to equalize wear, adjust the pinion and ring bearing preload....polish teh sliding dogs....and put new seals in and you should get another 100k miles.....if you do not wait to do this. Ray
Just preparing you. This transmission shares a grand total of about six pieces with any transmission VW, Porsche or Audi ever built. They are also things that will not generally help you. These are things like differential sde bearings, differential side seals, the adjusting rings for the diff bearing bring load...and very possibly a second gear syncro ring with one year model of an early 911....and I can't verify that.
That being said, all differntial and pinion shaft bearings, main shaft seal, side seals and o-rings, countershaft needle bearings and maybe one or two other needle bearings can be sourced at most bearing and seal houses.
Synchros.....no. Gears...no. Main shafts and shafts...no.
These were unique to this transmission. In fact the transmission is a totally unique design and shares not even configuration with anything in any aircooled vehicle.
And...that being said....is a great gearbox. But...it has some quirks...all of which will result in its death if not takencare of.
Keep in good chear. In general...not being able to find gears is not generally a death sentence. If it is grinding or howling...preceding not being able to find the gears.....that may be a differnt story.
You will need to disassemble it. When you get to this tsage let me know and I can guide you through it.
Trust me when I tell you that if you want this thing to run for a long time....yoy needto plan on replacing the bearings in the final drive. While in there...you will need to reshim the spacer between the stub axles in teh differential. The wear of the spacer and shims in these trannys is one of the two things that will...and always eventually does....kill all of these transmissions. The differntial side gears are very long toothed and very high ration for very quick acceleration in turns. They are different from any I have seen in ACVW's.....which means also that they are irreplacable.
The problem is that the barrel spacer between the side gears in the differntial wears to quickly letting teh side shafts float. This is also partly due to wear at the stel spacer ring at the outboard CV flanges. The gears slide back and forth penetrating too deeply...wearing the gears...and shattering them. Simply reshim them...and they can last forever.
Next....is the counter shaft gear cluster. this part alon is poorly lubricated by design. It can start howling. When it does....it can do so for 30k miles or so and never get worse in sound quality. But.....what is happening is that the needle bearings are shot...and it is misaligning the gear cluster . Not only will it wear out all of the gears..eventually it will strip the teeth from 4th gear. When this happens it is all over.
All of the transmissions of this type will lose th counter shaft needle bearings. Problem is..even if they are just scofred....they score the inner shaft. You ned to have a new one made. It os very very simple and costs maybe $60 at any decnt machine shop. The needle bearings will have scored the inside bore of the counter gear as well. You can replace them with cartridge type needle bearings (I can get you a part #)...for about $40. Change the counter shaft thrust bearingsm flip the third gear bushing to equalize wear, adjust the pinion and ring bearing preload....polish teh sliding dogs....and put new seals in and you should get another 100k miles.....if you do not wait to do this. Ray
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:36 am
WOW!
Thanks for an in depth reply-my mechanical knowledge is left somewhere near the begining of what you were describing...
If I can find a second hand gearbox I think I will fit that and strip this box as and when I get the time and if I can recondition it then I will I have a spare one.
My biggest problem is having nowhere to park the car off the road here and the local council are against people doing "major" car repairs on the street...someone will grass me up and then the council will come and get all official blah- blah
Thanks for an in depth reply-my mechanical knowledge is left somewhere near the begining of what you were describing...
If I can find a second hand gearbox I think I will fit that and strip this box as and when I get the time and if I can recondition it then I will I have a spare one.
My biggest problem is having nowhere to park the car off the road here and the local council are against people doing "major" car repairs on the street...someone will grass me up and then the council will come and get all official blah- blah
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Its alwasy a good idea to have a spare or two for the manual transmission vehicles. From the sound of it the chances are...there is not very much wrong.
Go ahead and source a gear box....but do not just go swapping it. You can very easily destroy that one in the exact same method. There are numerous issues that can cause what is happening that have nothing to do with the box itself.
The 411/412 had a very unique gearbox compareed to other vw's. It had an end to end mainshaft. It was very critical that the entire drivetrain package is aligned in th chassis properly or else the mainshaft flexes causing wear, poor sjifting etc.. In fact...when almost any major drivetrain or engine work is done...it needs to be realigned.
Its actually easy....as ther are several adjustment points included in the bushings and mounts of these cars. I will expalin more a little later. Ray
Go ahead and source a gear box....but do not just go swapping it. You can very easily destroy that one in the exact same method. There are numerous issues that can cause what is happening that have nothing to do with the box itself.
The 411/412 had a very unique gearbox compareed to other vw's. It had an end to end mainshaft. It was very critical that the entire drivetrain package is aligned in th chassis properly or else the mainshaft flexes causing wear, poor sjifting etc.. In fact...when almost any major drivetrain or engine work is done...it needs to be realigned.
Its actually easy....as ther are several adjustment points included in the bushings and mounts of these cars. I will expalin more a little later. Ray
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david58
- Moderator
- Posts: 14096
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:14 pm
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:36 am
Hopefully the problem I have is down to the selection rod/linkages as after fiddling with these I could locate all the gears again. Strange, I really feared the worse. At some point it appears that someone has fitted one of those short change/shift kits, I was tempted to remove it. There is a way you are meant to adjust the gear stick but the Haynes manual is not very easy to follow with this, any suggestions?
On looking at the front selection bush this looks loose/worn out and at the rear selection link there its lots of play in this joint, is this normal?
I have opened the bottom of the box, like you suggested Ray, and as far as my limited eye can tell it looks OK. There is o metal fragments and all the cogs(?) I can see don't appear to have any noticable damage.
The gear box oil however seemed to be very frothy, almost like the head on a good pint of Guiness. Again is this a normal occurance or something to worry about?
PS Sorry about the quality of the pictures
On looking at the front selection bush this looks loose/worn out and at the rear selection link there its lots of play in this joint, is this normal?
I have opened the bottom of the box, like you suggested Ray, and as far as my limited eye can tell it looks OK. There is o metal fragments and all the cogs(?) I can see don't appear to have any noticable damage.
The gear box oil however seemed to be very frothy, almost like the head on a good pint of Guiness. Again is this a normal occurance or something to worry about?
PS Sorry about the quality of the pictures
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Your gear oil had water in it. Thats not good....but if you have not been driving it much....its easy to fix. Refill the tranny with very light hypoid gear oil...like 75/90. Run it until warm. Drain it...and repeat. The final oil change shoudl be 85/90 or straight 90.
Yes its a waste of 5 qts oil...but gets the water out. This comes from sitting around for years with no real hot weather...no long drives and no oil changes. It is condensation from weather changes.
What you are seeing in the shift linkage is a standard mess. Its part of why these shift so bad generally.
Try and follow this in your mind.
(1) The ball joint part is attached to the rod coming out of the tranny.
If you are sitting in front of the tranny in the back seat with nothing in your way to look t this ball joint and shaft end-on.....you would see...that the length of that little stubby ball joint....moves in an "arc"...from side to side with the shift rod. The outside perimeter (the biggest part) of the arc....is centered around the center of the ball itself...not the very outside end of the ball. You can see this when you remove the ball stub....because there is a rubber ring that bisects the nylon ball part. This is the part that contacts the tube section on the end of the shift rod.
With me so far?
So....in order not to over or under-rotate....the length of that ball stub is critical. If for some reason it is too short....the arc....that the shiftrod moves it through will be to small (not connecting the gears). If for some reason it is too long.....the arc becomes to big and the shift forks over-rotate.
So.....since the ball stub cannot change its length.....what gives?
Check this out......
(2) Back where the shift rod comes out of the body under the back seat...is a plastic disc about 4" diameter that fits around the shift rod and pops into the body tunnel. That only fits one way. It has a square stop that must be at 12:00 or the disc will not fit. The hole for the shift rod should be greased and not hideously worn out. If any of these two things happen....the shft rod drops.......and the little hood or tube at the end sits too low....making the shifting arc it procscribes...too small in diameter....so you do not go into gear. With me so far?
(3) Think of that ball stub again. It must always sit at the same height on the shift rod coming out of the tranny.....because the shift rod coming out of the body is always at an exact set height if all is well.
But....if the rod from tranny is not....level.....meaning that the entire engine say....sits too low in the rear of the car.......the tranny shift rod tilts upward.....causeing the arc of the ball stub to be too high......which sits it up higher in the shift coupling tube...causing the arc to be to short.
SO......make sure (a) the plastic disc and shift rod are correctly aligned and settled in the body (b) make sure the tube coupler is tightly bolted to the shift rod via its grub screw and safety wire (c) the ball stub is also tightly bolted to the shift rod coming from the tranny...again with grub screw in the tapered hole with safety wire attached .....
most important (d) to be properly adjusted.....you must have a good tail cone bushing. Really mainly so its not so chewed up that there is rubber in a full ring around it. In reality the mushroom shaped bumper is slightly smaller in diamter than the hole in the rear trailing wishbone. When everything is properly adjusted....the round bumper on teh tail cone should be centered...floating....in the hole in the rear trailing wishbone...without touching any walls. The shifter rod should be nearly level......and the black plate that is the mountinmg plate for the tail cone bushing shouldnot be touching the rear trailing wishbone. It should have a gap between the rear suspension and itself of about 1/8".
When all is correct...you should be able to lay under the car....and shake the rear of the transmission with one hand and have it move about 1/8" in any direction in its socket in the rear suspension. It must have no load on it.
Likewise....the rear hanger bar bushings should have about 1/8" crush only. they should not be bulging under tension. You should likewise be able to shake the engine around just a hair by lifting with one hand at the rear.
In reality....the entire drivetrain package is suspended by the two bushings and the hanger that are above teh joint between the tranny and engine in the center. The tail cone bushing and rear cross bar bushings are simply "bumpers". They carry no load. If they do...you get wear and poor shifting. Ray
Yes its a waste of 5 qts oil...but gets the water out. This comes from sitting around for years with no real hot weather...no long drives and no oil changes. It is condensation from weather changes.
What you are seeing in the shift linkage is a standard mess. Its part of why these shift so bad generally.
Try and follow this in your mind.
(1) The ball joint part is attached to the rod coming out of the tranny.
If you are sitting in front of the tranny in the back seat with nothing in your way to look t this ball joint and shaft end-on.....you would see...that the length of that little stubby ball joint....moves in an "arc"...from side to side with the shift rod. The outside perimeter (the biggest part) of the arc....is centered around the center of the ball itself...not the very outside end of the ball. You can see this when you remove the ball stub....because there is a rubber ring that bisects the nylon ball part. This is the part that contacts the tube section on the end of the shift rod.
With me so far?
So....in order not to over or under-rotate....the length of that ball stub is critical. If for some reason it is too short....the arc....that the shiftrod moves it through will be to small (not connecting the gears). If for some reason it is too long.....the arc becomes to big and the shift forks over-rotate.
So.....since the ball stub cannot change its length.....what gives?
Check this out......
(2) Back where the shift rod comes out of the body under the back seat...is a plastic disc about 4" diameter that fits around the shift rod and pops into the body tunnel. That only fits one way. It has a square stop that must be at 12:00 or the disc will not fit. The hole for the shift rod should be greased and not hideously worn out. If any of these two things happen....the shft rod drops.......and the little hood or tube at the end sits too low....making the shifting arc it procscribes...too small in diameter....so you do not go into gear. With me so far?
(3) Think of that ball stub again. It must always sit at the same height on the shift rod coming out of the tranny.....because the shift rod coming out of the body is always at an exact set height if all is well.
But....if the rod from tranny is not....level.....meaning that the entire engine say....sits too low in the rear of the car.......the tranny shift rod tilts upward.....causeing the arc of the ball stub to be too high......which sits it up higher in the shift coupling tube...causing the arc to be to short.
SO......make sure (a) the plastic disc and shift rod are correctly aligned and settled in the body (b) make sure the tube coupler is tightly bolted to the shift rod via its grub screw and safety wire (c) the ball stub is also tightly bolted to the shift rod coming from the tranny...again with grub screw in the tapered hole with safety wire attached .....
most important (d) to be properly adjusted.....you must have a good tail cone bushing. Really mainly so its not so chewed up that there is rubber in a full ring around it. In reality the mushroom shaped bumper is slightly smaller in diamter than the hole in the rear trailing wishbone. When everything is properly adjusted....the round bumper on teh tail cone should be centered...floating....in the hole in the rear trailing wishbone...without touching any walls. The shifter rod should be nearly level......and the black plate that is the mountinmg plate for the tail cone bushing shouldnot be touching the rear trailing wishbone. It should have a gap between the rear suspension and itself of about 1/8".
When all is correct...you should be able to lay under the car....and shake the rear of the transmission with one hand and have it move about 1/8" in any direction in its socket in the rear suspension. It must have no load on it.
Likewise....the rear hanger bar bushings should have about 1/8" crush only. they should not be bulging under tension. You should likewise be able to shake the engine around just a hair by lifting with one hand at the rear.
In reality....the entire drivetrain package is suspended by the two bushings and the hanger that are above teh joint between the tranny and engine in the center. The tail cone bushing and rear cross bar bushings are simply "bumpers". They carry no load. If they do...you get wear and poor shifting. Ray
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func412
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:55 am
Bad oil makes shifting difficult. In our 412 racecar transmission oil gets too hot and looses the lubrication quality. After that it´s hard to change gears. Water in oil has definitely something to do with this issue. Have you washed your transmission lately? If I remember right, there is a breather hole on top of the transmission case. It looks like there is more than a drop or two water involved.
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wshawn
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:36 am
I haven't washed it at all, the transmission that is I have obviuosly washed the rest of the cerfunc412 wrote:Have you washed your transmission lately? If I remember right, there is a breather hole on top of the transmission case. It looks like there is more than a drop or two water involved.
, but as I have only had the car a few short months I have no way of knowing if and when the oil was last changed.A little reminder to me to change all the other filters and fluids in the car I think, at least then I will know they have been done.
I shall follow Rays advice on this one and "waste a few litres of gear oil to ensure the water is all out and then replace the bottom hatch gasket as the old one has not sealed very well and there is a small puddle of oil under the car this morning
and Ray I shall have another look at the tail cone bushing (didn't realise the importance of this one) and check the the plastic disc (again didn't realise the significance). I checked the moving parts along the linkage and again need to clarify what is NORMAL free play and what is TOO much free play with in these links.
Again many thanks to you all for taking the time to help out.