New to type fourdom...help w/ parts and wheels.

[DocLong]

Ok, first, I'll re-introduce myself. I was here a few years ago as NeinH20. Bakc then I had a 74 Super Beetle I believe.

Now I've got a 73 412 variant, auto, 59k OG miles in Maya Gold. Along with the car, i've got some questions.

1- The PO says it leaks when you put more than 5 gallons of gas in it....what could this be?

2- I need front seat covers, OEM style...where can I find these?

3- The suspension....how is it set up on the 412? Coil springs front and rear? Can I just cut them for the time being? (going air down the road.)

4- I've got 16x7 et35 BBS RS wheels I was thinking about fitting...they are 4x100. The tires are 205/40/16's. Will these fit, and how can I go about bolting them on? Redrill the rotors and drums? redrill the wheels?

I would try and 'test fit em' to check for clearence but I'm in Iraq, and the car obviously isn't.

Help?

please e-mail me at DOCLONG@hotmail dot com

[raygreenwood]

The fuel leakage problem is from the 12mm vent hoses both at the top right of the fuel tank and in the filler neck area under the fender.
The filler neck area leakage also creates a long term rust sem problem right in front of the passenger door that will destroy teh fender if you do not catch it.

The seat covers are non-existant. You will have to have them upholstered...or...and this is an answer I was working on last year, ....the rear seat with folding armrest is identical to that in the type 3 fastback sedans....of I think 70-73. So a kit from Sewfine should install with just a few tweeks. The front seats are unique. I was thinking of working on a group buy..wherin we send one complete seat to sewfine. It will cost about $450 to make the patterns. Only one of us need make patterns....then they will be on file. The seats themselves will cost $125-185 each for the materials kit.
So...if 10 of us got together, it would cost each of us about $45 for his.her share of the pattern cost...and about $150 for each seat cover kit made. Each person could get their seats made in any of teh many diverse vinyls or tweeds aor velours that sewfine has.
Not bad.
But also I am looking right now at Procar brand seats that are sold through Scat enterprises. Their "clasic" seat is nearly identical to tehstock front seats used in teh 411/412. Since they come with or without seat mounting frames on teh bottom....and our mounting rail frames detach from our seat bottoms...I may just get a brand new pair of black or blue vinyl pro-car seats...snap on my rails, knobs and bottom valance...and retro fit my original headrests...covered in the same tweed or vinyl that a rear seat kit from sewfine would be.
The procar seats are sweet...almost exact in paperance and isze...and about $225 each complete.

Do NOT cut coil springs on type 4's. That does nothing at all....but destroy the coils (which are not available)...and mess of the valving and stroke length of teh strut cartridges....of which yours are also shot....because they were defective in valving originally (they were weak on rebound which destroys them quickly)....and replacment strut cartridges have not been manufactured new since 1989.

If you want to lower the car...first get a grip on replacing the worn components.
There are several answers or methods that have been used sucessfully by members in this forum that simultaneously lower and replace strut components.

The font stock coil springswere very strong...more than needed...and very well balanced. The issu is that this car was desaigned to drive with that huge trunk full and the car had a natural tendency to ride nose high by almost an inch...because of design.

It looks higher than 1"...because the car body pivots around teh rear axle..driving the tail downward as the nose rises. Lowering teh front just so the rocker panel is level and parallel with the pavement from front to rear..actually raises the rear just slightly.
Couple this with lower than stock profile wheels and tires...like 205/60-15's...and the appearance is that the whole car was lowered about 2"...and levelled. All of this is a major handling improvement as well.


Be warned. You do not have a low milage car.
Milage is irrelevant versus teh age..and the peculiar nature of some of teh componet designs in this car.

Things I can guarantee you:
Your fornt and rear shocks are shot
Your centerlink is shot
Your idler arm bushing is shot
Your tie-rod ends are shot
If the ball joints are still nice and stiff....install a grease fitting and get new boots from a bus ball joint....because these ball joints are unique and nearly un-obtainable. protect them. tak care of them.

your centering rings on the radius arms and the donuts are shot.

your control arm bushings are shot.
Your strut bushings and bearings are shot.

You can't just replace one or two things and consider the car drivable. The very long control arms and some of the materials that these componets were made from insure....that if certain componets are not new and or improved....and others are....they willdestroy each other.

We have solved many of these problems here. I have written at length about the 411/412 suspension issues. Please research.

These are the best VW's built in my opinion...but are in no way similar to restoring any other type of VW. There are lots of challanges.

Wecome to 411/412-dom. Ray

[DocLong]

Wow, thanks for the info.

The car already has cut coils at the front...

I found some replacement coils but to be honest with you I can't deal with the nose bleed stance.

You say the ball joints are made of pure unobtanium...nothing retrofits? Say early rabbit, porsche 914, or anything like that?

Excellent post. Thanks again.

-Doc Long

[wildthings]

There are a few ball joints available in eBaynium instead of pure unobtanium. If your old joints are still tight you can buy new ball joint boots for a bus and make do.

Save your old ones no matter the condition. I would like to send a bunch to Mexico for rebuilding.

[raygreenwood]

I have a solution I know will work for the ball joints. But I will not release the details until I can get to try one. You will have to have a piece of steel machined for each side. Its basically a triangular piece of metal that matches the shape of the steering knuckle piece sandwiched between the ball joint and the strut tube. It will be about 2.5" thick and will have a hole about 45mm bored in the center with a step of about 2mm. Into this hole...we will press from the top side...a flanged dodge truck balljoint that normally is pressed into an A-arm of a diesel truck. They are cheap...have hugely stiff springs inside...and readily available.

You will also have to drill three correctly spaced 10mm holes and thread them for the bolts that bolt this part to teh steering knuckle and teh strut tube.
So basically what you are making is a bracket to hold a press in ball joint that takes the place of theexisting ball joint...and bolts in just like it.

We will have to get the proper angle pin hole reamed into our control arms...but all of this should cost maybe $75 a side for machine work.
I would personally just have teh adaptorsmachined from a square block of tool steel, then take it home and mark of the triangular sides and mount it in teh vice and hack saw it....or have it hacksawed on a vertical band saw for cheap....then clean it up with a sander and files.

The Ball joint goes in from the top and has teh bottom of the strut reasting right on top of it when its clamped up...yes you need to measure. This way...the ball joint can never come out unless you want it to.

Since you are going t o need new struts for your 412...do some reading on teh audi strut cartridge and adpator stud method I use. Very superb handling and it effectivly drops the front an actual .9 to 1.2 inches...yes you could go a bit more, but bear in mind that half the problem is just perception. When the front of the car is up...the rear is down.

try this

Put new KYB gas adjusts on the rear...correct the camber issue I KNOW you have back there...and put on some low profile tires...or let the air out of the all of the tires to drop it down low to mimic the calculated sidewall height.

Then load the trunk with heavy stuff just until the bottom edge of the rocker panel closest to the pavement...up front by the rear edge of the front fender......is the same distance from the pavement...all along its edge all the way from front to back.


Then...stand back and look at it. It will appear that you have actually lowered the front end some 2+ inches. Its perception.
You lowered everything by tire profile yes ....but when you lower the front..via correctly valved struts instead of suspension compression like we are doing in this example...... you really only lower it about 1"...but between the rise on new shocks in the rear and lowering an actual 1" in the front...and the overall reduction of an 1+ on low profile tires...you get the affect of 2"+ of lowering.

I can send you details including actual plans for making the stub that allows using the audi/quantum KYB GR-2 cartridges. This is alos a 200% handling upgrade.

you need to find out how many coils were cut off. If its like one complet coil....thats a lot of loss...but can be tolerated. Look for some used coils.

The problem with doing this...is that cutting coils does nothing to lower the car....especially if you end up with gas struts. The gas struts have enough power in an unloaded front end to keep teh strut rod fully expanded sometimes.
Worse than that...a short spring cannot fully extend the length of the strut rod..so you get a double rebound which is dnagerous for handling.

This sounds difficult..but its not. Just hang loose. Ray

[doc]

DocLong,

Welcome to STF. Have you found the site valuable yet?

doc

[DocLong]

Doc,

I have...for years actually. I had one other type 4 (82 Vanagon) back in 03 and was here, but I can't remember my password and the e-mail addy is LONG gone.

Just curious, what kinda 'doc' are you?

[Wally]

The fuel leakage problem is from the 12mm vent hoses both at the top right of the fuel tank and in the filler neck area under the fender.

Thats probably spot on as that is where mine leaked when I got it. The outer vents under the fender I found quickly, but it kept smelling for fuel. Your first suggestion was also the case on mine. Took me months before I finally found the hidden spot under the front hood where that other cracked vent hose was...

[doc]

Not a real "doc". Just an old nick from a previous life that stuck.

Welcome back!!

doc

[raygreenwood]

Wally... It took me a year to really figure out the upper vent hose leakage on mine. Everything you can see looks pristine. The fuel evaporates so fast in warm wather that even after filling the tank I could not see a wet spot on the hose ...what portion of the hose I could see.

The difficult problem with vehicles whose vent hoses leak for a long time, is that it permeates teh undercoating at teh rear bulkhead of the rightfront fender. It literally disolves a lot of that undercoating and allows water to invade the rolled edge at the rear of the fender right next to the door seam. By the time this rust is visible from the outside...its too late...the fender is gone. Ray

[albert]

ray ,,the best solution i have find for that in 74, for to save the new vent hose and the inner fender was the instalation of the plastic fender inside of the original fender ,,samething we have tooday in the new car , we can use one from the ford mustang 1990 or from the audi 100 -200 , the plastic in the rear fenders ,ok that take small adjustment for to fit in the 412 front fenders but easy to doo, ,albert

[DocLong]

So far I've become quite blasphemist with my decsions on the car. I don't have much of a choice because the long days here in Iraq lead to lots of day dreaming. haha.

So far I've purchased moon caps, 135Sr15's for the front, 1 1/8" and 3" portawalls, 5" yellow fog lights, and enough John Deere Blitz Black (semi-gloss or more of a matte really) to do the whole car....although I think the roof will stay gold. Then it's getting gold pinstripped.

I go home around the 20th of this month for 18 days, I plan to start body work, and get the tires/hub caps on it....

Also, quick question....what speakers fit in the 412?

[wshawn]

The fuel leakage problem is from the 12mm vent hoses both at the top right of the fuel tank and in the filler neck area under the fender.

Thats probably spot on as that is where mine leaked when I got it. The outer vents under the fender I found quickly, but it kept smelling for fuel. Your first suggestion was also the case on mine. Took me months before I finally found the hidden spot under the front hood where that other cracked vent hose was...

My 412 smells of fuel when I fill up, found the length of pipe inside the front right hand wheel arch and clamped it at both ends, the pipe fitted at the moment looks a bit tatty but is dry and looks like someone has changed it before as it a metal braided exterior sort of pipe (?) so shall change it for a new bit.

However is there another breather pipe somewhere in the front luggage area that it would be worth changing as well? Is this what Wally is describing, if so whereabouts is it?

[raygreenwood]

The way to find this....is open the trunk. Walk to the passenger sde and look right where the hood hinge is up against bulkhead/firewall to the dash area. You will see a smallish access hole plate and a loop of aluminum pipe disappearing through a grommet in teh bulkhead toward the fender. The part you changed under the fender is the other end of this one. Under the carepet is the acess lid. Pry it up carefully and you will see teh nipple on the top of the gas tank where the hose connects. Its a pain to change. Ray

[raygreenwood]

There are not relly any speakers that fit the 412 per-se. It had only one speaker in the dash from the factory.

That being said, the 412 had excellent accoustics. I fabbed a board to make a flat deck behind back seat. It drops in nice and level and has an access lid in the center to be able to reach in to open the heater access lids.

I am partial to Blaupunkt componet speakers because they have excellent efficiency and sound. I use four 6.5" components in the rear and have the deck I made subdivided underneath and use polyfill straw for extended mod and bass range.

I have a pair of 5"x7" two way plates under each rear armrest...set back about 3" and angled up. Poly fil fiber in the body there too.

You can put a pair of 6.5" rounds in the forward door panel corner but its best to put them on slightly angled blocks of built up wood or plastic. Somewhere between surface mount speakers and flush mounts.
Its not just the depth they protrude into the door and the potential interference with the winder, it is the diameter.
The Blaupunky "thin" series are superb for this location I have two two channel blaupunkt class T mosfett amps for the front trunk.

There are lots of places to put speakers in the 412. You just have to fabricate them. Ray