Will do Ray. Thanks for the help. Would you recommend the manual transmission disassembly/assembly methods in the Haynes green cover book? My current trans "clunks" into second occationally. I plan on rebuilding the '74 trans I got from Fye while the '73 is still alive. The '73 is my daily driver, so what can I do to keep it alive until the rebuild?raygreenwood wrote:I urge you to read some of my writings on the 4-speed tranny. Great box!....but urge all owners of one to open them up, clean them and replace all diff bearings and countershaft bearings (as well as have a new countershaft made...its simple).
The spacer in the differential between the side shafts should be checked for wear and shimmed.
These trannys will run forever...but they carry in them the seeds of their own death by design.....all if them will die one of two ways. Ray
My 4Speed
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
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Lars S
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:25 pm
..I did not remove the exhaust or the heat exchanger, had to bend the tin above the alternator a bit...Yes Lars, it came out easily after removing exhaust, right heat exchanger, air cleaner, air duct, and rear tin
/Lars
-914/4 -72 daily driver
-Husqvarna 120cc rat bike -48
-Husqvarna 120cc -52
-BMW 600 Road Scrambler -69
-Suzuki T500 Cobra -69
-VW411LE 2-door sedan -70
-Porsche 914/4 -72
-VW412LE 4-door sedan -73
-Suzuki K50 -77
-Husqvarna 120cc rat bike -48
-Husqvarna 120cc -52
-BMW 600 Road Scrambler -69
-Suzuki T500 Cobra -69
-VW411LE 2-door sedan -70
-Porsche 914/4 -72
-VW412LE 4-door sedan -73
-Suzuki K50 -77
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Wally
- Posts: 4564
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Its the big screw about under the oil cooler location.There is only one of them. Can't miss, but do it while you do an oil change 
(and use the haynes manual to see what you need to pull out)
Walter
(and use the haynes manual to see what you need to pull out)
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Wally....you are correct about the "big screw"....and I believe you mean the oil pressure relief valve cover. In cars driven hard, this can start leaking at the crush seal.
Bill K.....the haynes green manual is about all that is out there and is pretty good. That being said...there is a whole lot that is not in it. For instance...they tell you to stay away from getting into the differential. Actually...thats not bad advice since the specialized measuring tools you will need do not exist. But...in order to insure that the tranny has an extended life....you must get into the differential. For differential set-up....get the Bentley brown manual for the type 3 and refer to the automatic section. The diffs are the same type and nearly identical in so many ways. They are both (the 004 4 speed and 003 auto)....fully hypoid designs. They are unique among VW's....in that the pinion shaft crosses over the ring gear, so that the pinion gear drives the ring from the opposite side.
This is not a big deal as long as you remember that in this design of differential housing is very difficult to measure the pinion depth of mesh ...axially....wth the ring gear....and it is also difficult to measure gear backlash. From the "full hypoid" description above....you will note that the pinion gear actually is located at the bell housing end of the case...and not closer to the transfer sectiuon like the bug. This means that you can barely see the pinion gear to measure its distance from the center of the ring gear. Its depth is set by a single shim located under the front seal nose cone inside of the bell housing.
All of this can be done quite easily....but since you don't have factory tools....you have to get slightly innovative.
You will need a couple special wrenches that you can easily make....I can e-mail photos. You will also need what the book details as a "dynamometer" to set bearing pre-load. You can make one out of a small inch-pound, beam style torque wrench with a rotational knob grafted on.
There area few things that are not in the books. In all 004's I have found...you must re-shim the spider gears in the diff...simple. and either replace or shim the tube spacer between the two stub axles or the slack begins to destroy the stubs and spiders.....which are unique and not replaceable.
Also....you MUST....replace the counter shaft that goes within the counter gear carrier. Thats a simple piece of 18mm shaft....which you can buy pre-hardened for about $30....and have a step ground or milled onto the end...and a 8mm hole dilled in the other. The whole thing costs less than $100. You will also need to replace the countershaft needle bearings. Since you cannot resurface the galling that always happens to the inside of the counter shaft....you will need to use fully enclosed cartridge style needle bearings. They are cheap and I can get you the part #.
As for other things.....look on line at long transaxles work on clearancing and back-cutting sliders in their transmissions. Unforunately since this is done CNC...they can't do ours...but you can do you own. On a work surface you can use three cheap 608zz bearings as contact points to hold teh slider at three points whie you rotate against a dial indicator with a sharp point. You than then map the high and low points and remove them with a diamond file.
I am working on a re-shim method behind the brass synchro rings to restore full ability. I should know that by march. More when you need it. Ray
Bill K.....the haynes green manual is about all that is out there and is pretty good. That being said...there is a whole lot that is not in it. For instance...they tell you to stay away from getting into the differential. Actually...thats not bad advice since the specialized measuring tools you will need do not exist. But...in order to insure that the tranny has an extended life....you must get into the differential. For differential set-up....get the Bentley brown manual for the type 3 and refer to the automatic section. The diffs are the same type and nearly identical in so many ways. They are both (the 004 4 speed and 003 auto)....fully hypoid designs. They are unique among VW's....in that the pinion shaft crosses over the ring gear, so that the pinion gear drives the ring from the opposite side.
This is not a big deal as long as you remember that in this design of differential housing is very difficult to measure the pinion depth of mesh ...axially....wth the ring gear....and it is also difficult to measure gear backlash. From the "full hypoid" description above....you will note that the pinion gear actually is located at the bell housing end of the case...and not closer to the transfer sectiuon like the bug. This means that you can barely see the pinion gear to measure its distance from the center of the ring gear. Its depth is set by a single shim located under the front seal nose cone inside of the bell housing.
All of this can be done quite easily....but since you don't have factory tools....you have to get slightly innovative.
You will need a couple special wrenches that you can easily make....I can e-mail photos. You will also need what the book details as a "dynamometer" to set bearing pre-load. You can make one out of a small inch-pound, beam style torque wrench with a rotational knob grafted on.
There area few things that are not in the books. In all 004's I have found...you must re-shim the spider gears in the diff...simple. and either replace or shim the tube spacer between the two stub axles or the slack begins to destroy the stubs and spiders.....which are unique and not replaceable.
Also....you MUST....replace the counter shaft that goes within the counter gear carrier. Thats a simple piece of 18mm shaft....which you can buy pre-hardened for about $30....and have a step ground or milled onto the end...and a 8mm hole dilled in the other. The whole thing costs less than $100. You will also need to replace the countershaft needle bearings. Since you cannot resurface the galling that always happens to the inside of the counter shaft....you will need to use fully enclosed cartridge style needle bearings. They are cheap and I can get you the part #.
As for other things.....look on line at long transaxles work on clearancing and back-cutting sliders in their transmissions. Unforunately since this is done CNC...they can't do ours...but you can do you own. On a work surface you can use three cheap 608zz bearings as contact points to hold teh slider at three points whie you rotate against a dial indicator with a sharp point. You than then map the high and low points and remove them with a diamond file.
I am working on a re-shim method behind the brass synchro rings to restore full ability. I should know that by march. More when you need it. Ray
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
I picked up a few tools off theSamba - all for $22 
"Type 4 transmission centering tool" (4456)
Pinion Clamp (VW249)
Pinion Spanner Wrench (VW182) -- missing one tooth, but repairable
Pinion Clamp Bracket (VW786) - looks similar to VW386 shown in Factory Type2 book
How is the "transmission centering tool (4456)" used?
"Type 4 transmission centering tool" (4456)
Pinion Clamp (VW249)
Pinion Spanner Wrench (VW182) -- missing one tooth, but repairable
Pinion Clamp Bracket (VW786) - looks similar to VW386 shown in Factory Type2 book
How is the "transmission centering tool (4456)" used?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Well...terminaology wise...I know what a centering tool would be used for on a type 4.....but that does not look like what it should be.
On the 004...the tail cone bushing must be entered dead on in teh hole n the rear beam....when everything is at rest. In one of the early clymer manuals they describe a set of 3 feeler gauges used right before hooking up the shift rod to the tranny...to make sure that the tail shift rod position is correct before you hook up to teh long shift rod and then adjust your shifter.
The pinion clamp bracket...I can surmise would hold an indicator to the pinion shaft for working on the pinion carrier...or it might just be a holding clamp to use while you are setting ring gear backlash.
The pinion clamp....not sure how that works.
The pin wrench is useful for adjusting differntial sside bearings. I just made mine.
The real problem is that there is no manual at all outside of the Haynes manual...and it really does not list special VW tools....or much else like specs for that matter.
How do you know these are for the 004 without a book? Ray
On the 004...the tail cone bushing must be entered dead on in teh hole n the rear beam....when everything is at rest. In one of the early clymer manuals they describe a set of 3 feeler gauges used right before hooking up the shift rod to the tranny...to make sure that the tail shift rod position is correct before you hook up to teh long shift rod and then adjust your shifter.
The pinion clamp bracket...I can surmise would hold an indicator to the pinion shaft for working on the pinion carrier...or it might just be a holding clamp to use while you are setting ring gear backlash.
The pinion clamp....not sure how that works.
The pin wrench is useful for adjusting differntial sside bearings. I just made mine.
The real problem is that there is no manual at all outside of the Haynes manual...and it really does not list special VW tools....or much else like specs for that matter.
How do you know these are for the 004 without a book? Ray
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
I don't, but I have you Ray!raygreenwood wrote:How do you know these are for the 004 without a book? Ray
The tools arrived yesterday.
4456 does appear to be a transmission centering tool. The slot in the triangle part fits under the tail shift rod in the hole of the rear crossmember. The sides of the triangle on either side of the slot (24.3 mm/side) center the shift rod by adjusting the trans hanger mounts left/right. The vertical distance between the slot and the 90 degree part of the triangle (21 mm) centers the shift rod by adjusting the engine hanger up/down.
From Haynes 411/412 manual, p 17, "8 Work underneath and check that the gearbox shift lever is correctly placed in the hole through the rear axle carrier. It should be 23 mm from the bottom of the hole to the bottom of the shaft and equidistant (25.5 mm) from each side. If it isn't then the transmission carrier must be repositioned to give sideways movement, and the engine carrier to give vertical movement. The distances can best be checked by cutting out a sheet metal gauge and slipping it between the shaft and the carrier."
From my Type2 Repair Manual, Auto Trans 003 section, the Pinion Clamp (VW249) is used to grip inside the pinion shaft. The square end is for a torque wrench to check pinion preload. Pinion Clamp Bracket (VV386), similar to the VW786 I have, is for gripping the outside of the pinion shaft to check differential backlash. Is the process for adjusting the ring gear and pinion of a 004 similar to a 003 and would these tools be applicable?
Ray, per email, thanks for gathering up sketch of counter shaft and part numbers for bearings, etc. I'll post here when available.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11906
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
The type 003 and 004 differentials are the same in many ways....so much so that I use the ring and pinion backlash settings from the bentley type 3 manual with no ill affects. The diff side bearing preload is from the 091 bus tranny book. I think....I get the pinion shaft bearing preloads from type 3 bently or from type 4 Haynes. I will find out.
Now...that being said....the pinion bearing assembly on the type 4 is totally different.
Take careful note here:
There is a shim...with five bolt holes and an o-ring, set up with proper torque under the throwout bearing guide flange in the flywheel end of the diff housing. This sets the gap/preload on the pinionshaft bearing that is on the pinion gear end of the shaft.
It is bolted through the case to the cast steel pinionshaft carrier. This shim is set up......to the depth of the mesh for the pinion gear and shaft...with the ring gear.....in that case.
So to recap......the shim, the case, the pinion shaft and the ring gear and pinion gear....are set up with that five bolt shim....as a set. Keep them that way.
Now.....to adjust the pinion shaft bearing preloads....you first make sure that the new gear end pinion bearing that you install...is not grossly differnt from teh one that is in there. Just remove the outer race from teh case...clean bearing and race...stack the race onto the bearing and either measure total bearing/race thickness to the shoulder/face of the pinion gear with a micrometer or stack the whole thing on a tall comparator (doubt youwill have one that tall). As long as the new bearing and race...once they are pressed on...are not more than about .001" differnt one way or teh other than the old...you will be fine.
So you have the new pinion bearings on both ends of the shaft....and the pinion carrier bolted in and torqued to the diff housing with the original steel shim, new o-rings and a fine thinsemar of sealer...and the bearings are oiled. The differntial is not installed. Nothing but the pinion shaft and its bearings and shim are here now.
This is where you attache the torque tool to end of the pinion shaft...spin it...and set the preload on both pinion shaft bearings with the adjuster ring at the back end of the pinion shaft carrier. You will need to make a wrench or have the pin/spanner tool.
Once you have the preload set....and the edge peened to lock it...you can remove the pinion carrier and shim...and install the differential and new bearings. You want the ring gear backed away from where it will mesh with the pinion shaft.
Right now...without the pinion shaft in the case you are simply adjusting preload on the diff side bearings with the torque/spin tool. Once you get that set....lock the side opposite the ring gears adjusting ring. Then back the opposite adjusting ring out about 6 turns ...marking first and exactly counting how far out you go.
At this point you can then reinsert the pinion shaft carrier, its shim, and teh five bolt clamping hub with the new race in it...and torque it down for good.
Now you turn in teh differential side bearing adjuster ring that you backed out to bring teh ring gear into contact with the pinion gear.
At this point...as you bring the side gear adjuster ring exactly back to teh point you started...youshould not yet be in contact with teh pinion gear....but this is the exact correct setting for your bearing preload point. So....every turning INWARD amount you do with the adjuster ring to get the ring gear closer to the pinion gear...must be exactly mimicked exactly opposite on the adjuster ring on the other side to keep the exact bearrng preload. When you come in contact with the ring gear....you will now move the gear side adjusting ring in or out...again mirroring with the adjuster ring opposite to keep the proper bearing preload....until you have proper gear backlash. Done.
This is really easy compared to other vw's...so keep your wits about you and relax. Since the differential side bearing adjuster rings are idnetical on the 091 bus....you can glean some info from the bus book....butsince the 091 is not a true hypoid gearing....it may have slightly different lash settings. Iwould use teh lash settings from the type 3 book since it is a fully hypoid gear set....and use the diff side bearing preload from the 091 bus since they are the same adjuster and bearing set.
This is what it requires to put new bearings on ring and pinion. There are other issues internal to the differential and spyder gears we can get to later. You must take care of those first actually.
From the point of re-install of ring and pinion onward....its a matter of putting on that aluminum centering ring...and re-stacking everything on the main/pinionshaft.
There are mods that can and should be done to several things in this tranny for longevity sake. Ray
Now...that being said....the pinion bearing assembly on the type 4 is totally different.
Take careful note here:
There is a shim...with five bolt holes and an o-ring, set up with proper torque under the throwout bearing guide flange in the flywheel end of the diff housing. This sets the gap/preload on the pinionshaft bearing that is on the pinion gear end of the shaft.
It is bolted through the case to the cast steel pinionshaft carrier. This shim is set up......to the depth of the mesh for the pinion gear and shaft...with the ring gear.....in that case.
So to recap......the shim, the case, the pinion shaft and the ring gear and pinion gear....are set up with that five bolt shim....as a set. Keep them that way.
Now.....to adjust the pinion shaft bearing preloads....you first make sure that the new gear end pinion bearing that you install...is not grossly differnt from teh one that is in there. Just remove the outer race from teh case...clean bearing and race...stack the race onto the bearing and either measure total bearing/race thickness to the shoulder/face of the pinion gear with a micrometer or stack the whole thing on a tall comparator (doubt youwill have one that tall). As long as the new bearing and race...once they are pressed on...are not more than about .001" differnt one way or teh other than the old...you will be fine.
So you have the new pinion bearings on both ends of the shaft....and the pinion carrier bolted in and torqued to the diff housing with the original steel shim, new o-rings and a fine thinsemar of sealer...and the bearings are oiled. The differntial is not installed. Nothing but the pinion shaft and its bearings and shim are here now.
This is where you attache the torque tool to end of the pinion shaft...spin it...and set the preload on both pinion shaft bearings with the adjuster ring at the back end of the pinion shaft carrier. You will need to make a wrench or have the pin/spanner tool.
Once you have the preload set....and the edge peened to lock it...you can remove the pinion carrier and shim...and install the differential and new bearings. You want the ring gear backed away from where it will mesh with the pinion shaft.
Right now...without the pinion shaft in the case you are simply adjusting preload on the diff side bearings with the torque/spin tool. Once you get that set....lock the side opposite the ring gears adjusting ring. Then back the opposite adjusting ring out about 6 turns ...marking first and exactly counting how far out you go.
At this point you can then reinsert the pinion shaft carrier, its shim, and teh five bolt clamping hub with the new race in it...and torque it down for good.
Now you turn in teh differential side bearing adjuster ring that you backed out to bring teh ring gear into contact with the pinion gear.
At this point...as you bring the side gear adjuster ring exactly back to teh point you started...youshould not yet be in contact with teh pinion gear....but this is the exact correct setting for your bearing preload point. So....every turning INWARD amount you do with the adjuster ring to get the ring gear closer to the pinion gear...must be exactly mimicked exactly opposite on the adjuster ring on the other side to keep the exact bearrng preload. When you come in contact with the ring gear....you will now move the gear side adjusting ring in or out...again mirroring with the adjuster ring opposite to keep the proper bearing preload....until you have proper gear backlash. Done.
This is really easy compared to other vw's...so keep your wits about you and relax. Since the differential side bearing adjuster rings are idnetical on the 091 bus....you can glean some info from the bus book....butsince the 091 is not a true hypoid gearing....it may have slightly different lash settings. Iwould use teh lash settings from the type 3 book since it is a fully hypoid gear set....and use the diff side bearing preload from the 091 bus since they are the same adjuster and bearing set.
This is what it requires to put new bearings on ring and pinion. There are other issues internal to the differential and spyder gears we can get to later. You must take care of those first actually.
From the point of re-install of ring and pinion onward....its a matter of putting on that aluminum centering ring...and re-stacking everything on the main/pinionshaft.
There are mods that can and should be done to several things in this tranny for longevity sake. Ray
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Bill K.
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:50 pm
004 Transmission Rebuild Here -- http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=116847
SDS Fuel Injection Here -- http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=118181
SDS Fuel Injection Here -- http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=118181
