it doesn't start

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:53 am

hi folks

!
last saturday i planned to start my newly built 411 engine.
I took special care while assembling it : new 94mm cylinder kit (flat),a scat camshaft,new bearings , a central carb (not definitely) for the running in (Cam grinding),new cylindrer heads ,appropriate DH,CR ...

I seamed not missing anything

but at the moment to start it

,the starter run slow , then as it turned (with the starter) i heard a clac,clac noise

!

I don't know if it came from the starter or is it something inside the engine itself.

Also this leaded me to have doubt about my tuning

How exacty should I proceed to tune the engine ignition correctly? valves position,rotor indication etc...

My starter was used to run this slowly before but it though leaded the engine to start all the time.
Yes I plan to revise it this day

!

thanks for helping me

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:30 am

Hello. You need to remove all of the spark plugs and turn the engine by hand to first make sure that there is no interference due to something like the timing gear being off a notch or two.
Then make sure that when the #1 cylinder is exactly at TDC...that you are at least close to the mark for "0" on the fan.

Make sure the distributor is not out of sequence. This is where I would start. Ray

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:38 pm

Thanks Ray!
I would start by removing the spark plugs then to check what you told me.
But for the notches ,I really minded to match the marks on the gears so was it possible that they jumped over while assembling

?
I may have to pull down the engine then

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:54 am

Its not uncommon for this to happen. Its even more common though to get the distributor drive out of time due to the helix of the gear...so check the ignition timing first.

Also...I am assuming that this is solid lifters and not hydraulic?
Check your valve adjustment next. Trying to make heads or tails of the "clacking" noise. Could you be a little more specific? Is it coming from the starter...or somewhere in the engine? Ray

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:40 am

yes I have solid lifters on it!

I'm quite sure that the noise comes from the engine.It's not really perceptible within turning it by hand but I can feel some tough points while turning.(spark plugs off!)

The starter was also examined and the bottom ring is loose and I suppose this could be the same for the front one.

Should I try or not to launch it again when the starter is repaired

is it risky?something may break? or is it wiser to dissect the engine at once for checking:( ?

Sorry for so much questions but I doubt everything now

!

thanks a lot

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:22 am

If the spark plugs are out and you feel some tough points when you turn it by hand....something is wrong. You may feel "some" resistance as you are turning past maximum lift points for valves...but there shoudl be no sticking points.
I would run a compression test to make sure nothing tragic has happened....once you get your starter repaired. It may simply have been the starter. It takes but minutes to be careful. Ray

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:29 pm

yes!sticking point is the right word to define the resistance.

I can assume "something wrong" but when you say "something tragic",I dare nomore start it even for a compression test

I think I'll go right to the dissection of the engine

Do you have some particular advices to give?

thanks again

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:52 am

Remove the pushrods and rockers first so all of the valves are closed then rotate by hand again to see if the sticking points are gone. If it goes away...it could have been a valve guide binding, a lifter binding etc....or even a pushrod that did not seat in the lifter cup.
Then remove the heads and see if all of your valves are seating. Then rotate by hand to see if the sticking point is gone.
At this point you can re-check TDC and also clearances for deck. Ray

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:27 pm

Hi Ray!
Some good news

!
As I have finally decided to put down the engine,I made an ultimte check-in before going farther.
I did not feel the resistance as tough as I did when it was inside the car

!
I didn't hear or feel any interference too.So I put on the spark plugs again and check.
Normal resistance and nice breathing sound through the carbs.

So I finally decided not to dissect the engine and to put it in the car again.
It was also necessary to put down the engine for the replacement of the front ring of the starter ,so there hasn't been any extra tiring work at last

!

So a new start:the starter (repaired) didn't run as fast as I expected

!
I checked again that the #1 cylinder TDC the fan is closed to 0 as you told me.
Everything seemed right;so I decided to take off the distributor and replace it by the 009 of my 1641cc beetle.

But I tuned the beetle at #1 cylinder TDC and "0" mark before extracting the distributor.
I noticed that at the same position ; the 411 distributor indicates #1 cylinder (that I always thought normal

) and the beetle's indicates #3 cylinder

!

So I did not take off any distributor but only invert the 411 wiring to match the beetle's.

And again a new start

!
EUREKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a strenghtful VROUMMMMMM

!at first start

!
but stopped after 10 seconds!

but it was finally the mechanical fuel pump that was whimming

oufff!!!
so I will check this part correctly and start my 20 minutes run-in at 3000rpm and so on...!

thanks a lot for your helpful assistance

!
I think this engine will work good

Rigde.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:35 am

Excellent!. This is where our train of questioning was going. It appears that you simply had the distributor drive pinion installed 90-180 degress. Ray

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:43 am

yes

!

but you know I use to deal with mono-cylinder engine (my 2 stroke motocross) and for my poor logic TDC is closed to ignition

! so I was far from thinking that the TDC of #1 cylinder was matched to #3 cylinder ignition

!

I still don't understand or can't follow

!but once it works ,I agree

!

Do you feel like explaining me why

??

but great thanks anyway

!

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 am

Congratulations!

I always like a happy ending!

Will you post a picture of your 411 Parisienne?

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:21 am

I'd love to

! but I even can't load my avatar though light it is (9ko ,90pixels height).

Give me some clues of either how to attach pics in post or how to show my avatar on

!

The pictures I have at the moment are not updated as I'm restoring the car completely,but I wouldn't change its color (dark-blue).
I still have two or three months work on it

!

Ridge.

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:04 pm

Hi Ridge!

Here is a link: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=48275

I hope it helps you to post your pictures and avtar!

Ridge · Post by **Ridge** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:37 pm

hi folks

!and thanks for 412s2 for the link!I' ll try to understand

!

but here's yet a question:is there a typical noise or sound for the type4 engines?

As I bought my 411 on 2nd hand and had it to be repaired at that time,I have no reference of how should be its real sound

and yet , there is NO but not another 411 or type4 aircooled VW I can refer to here (excepting beetle but it's got a pretty more quiet sound

)

I'm not refering to the sound from the exhaust system , it's all right

,but the turning sound of the engine , it's too much present for me compared to beetle's.

As I had my engine completely re-newed ,I hopefully waited to hear much greater sound through it.

yes, through the exhaust it sounds strengh and power

,but I wish to hear nothing else

I run it this week-end and I am more than satisfied of its torque and power ,a very easy 140kmh:D !so I have no reproach at this side

!

But the turning sound,especially at low rpm (or iddling) isn't great

!
may be valves's sound

but why it's a new compete head

!

thanks for so much patience

!