the 412 designer is ded

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:30 pm

Ia lways told people that the 411/412 was an NSU product. Too many NSU parts to not be.

That explains the transmission as well. I have been wondering for decades why the 004 was so unique compared to other ACVW trannys. Its also lighter, better geared and ahead of its time design wise. Thanks you! Ray

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:02 am

Hi Ray!

NSU produced some amazing cars, have you seen the rear engined air-cooled NSU TT and TTS? I don't think they had an influence in the design of air-cooled VWs other than in producing an highly competent competitor with which to measure their products against. Remember NSU was an independent company until 1969 and when VW, Porsche and Pininfarina were busy designing the Type 4, NSU had their hands full designing the competing K70 and the incredible Ro80. VW bought NSU just before the NSU K70 was due to be released at the Geneva Motorshow, they had even produced the publicity material for it, but because VW thought this sophisticated car with 105PS would dent sales of its already in production Audi 100 and 411, they cancelled the launch. Eventually they tinkered with the K70 a little, reduced its output to 75PS and launched it in August 1970, positioning it between the 411 and the Audi 100, but still it was a very confusing model range. According to Marco Batazzi's book 'Volkswagen Beetle', VW made only 33 Marks on every K70 they sold...

Ray, I think you must know more about the inner workings of the Volkswagen Type 4 than anyone that posts here!! Where have you found NSU designed parts on the car? Were they embossed with NSU markings or just parts system picking slip tags? I have never found any NSU markings on my 412, but I have found NOS VW Type 1 oil strainer gasket sets from the early 70s in NSU boxes, with NSU paper tags inside the sealed plastic bags! NSU engineers took their expertise to the VW group when the company was absorbed. The NSU air-cooled, OHC, inline-4 is said by Marco Batazzi and other sources to be the basis for the development of the later EA111 series of watercooled VW engines, but I think they were absorbed too late to have any input into the 411.

You can see the inner workings of the air-cooled NSU engine and gearbox here:
http://stefannsu.piranho.de/technik_nsu_tts_1.htm
and here:
http://stefannsu.piranho.de/technik_nsu_tts_2.htm
it's a fancy little unit!

When I first saw the Volkswagen LT gearbox I thought it had a Type 4 look about it:

Here is a picture of the NSU designed, VW K70 engine and transmission, just for your interest:

(edit!! should check my links work before posting

)

Kind regards

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:07 am

More Type 4 history!!!!

J S Rastall (the person building the 5 door Variant) has been updating their website and has added an interesting section on the development of the Type 4 and related projects!!

Read about it here: http://rastall.com/412/412vw-ea240.html

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:29 am

412s2...thank you for those photos!
I can tell you just from looking at the gearbox diagram that there is more than a passing resemblance. There are numerous parts just from looking at that diagram that Iwoudl bet went right overto teh 411/412.
For instance....the reverse idler gear, the sliding forks...and possibly a few other ones. The three piece case design is also another hallmark of the 411/412 transmission.

The places I have found NSU, oval shaped part # decals are on the headlight bezels, the headlight bucket assemblies, the dashboard itself in certain models and mostly interior parts...like the rear seat on one 411 wagon I had.
I was never sure if they were "pick tickets" for a stocking system or if certain sub-assemblies wer made by NSU. It was clear that somewhere in the construction of the vehicles...NSU played a part. Ray

wshawn · Post by **wshawn** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:35 am

412s2 wrote:More Type 4 history!!!!

J S Rastall (the person building the 5 door Variant) have been updating their website and have added an interesting section on the development of the Type 4 and related projects!!

Read about it here: http://rastall.com/412/412vw-ea240.html

Amazing piece of engineering the conversion, I would love to see the finished car

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:59 am

VW must have used NSU to build some sub-assemblies, hence the NSU decals. I've read that Type 4s were built in Wolfsburg, Emden, Uitenhage (South Africa) and recently I read in the 'Volkswagen Chronicle, Volume 7' that from 1971 they were also built in Salzgitter alongside the NSU designed K70, could NSU have been producing parts for the K70 and Type 4s built in this factory?

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:52 pm

Very interesting reading and a great collection of combined info here guys!

On a sidenote - with regard to 6-cyl. engines in 411's - Did anybody ever notice that the manual type 4 box sits more to the front than it 'should' be? Just look at the angle of the drive-shafts: they are NOT in a 90 degree line with the gearbox. The manual box is (much) more to the front of the car than 'normal'!!
That kind of made me think the 411 was designed to take the 6-cylinder engine as from the beginning.... Roland's info makes this theory even stronger right?

albert · Post by **albert** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:42 pm

hy,,wally if you want to see the new car of ,,oininfarina,, go to google ,,and ask for,,, pininfarina hyperion ,, it is a very nice car ,,

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:16 pm

Wally, possibly they wanted to move the gravity center forward some cm's without shortening the wheel base, by moving engine/gearbox forward and having the drive shafts pointing a bit backwards.
However I would like to have seen the 6-cyl as an option also

so let's keep that theory alive also...

Lars S

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:33 pm

Thanks Albert.

Lars S wrote:Wally, possibly they wanted to move the gravity center forward some cm's without shortening the wheel base, by moving engine/gearbox forward and having the drive shafts pointing a bit backwards.

That was my first thought as well and I was flabbergasted by such an elaborate measurement to achieve this. The position of the battery (under the front seat) must also have been because of this.
(Its an awesome car!) But then I read here about 6-cylinder possibilities having been thought of back in the days and you start thinking in other directions

However I would like to have seen the 6-cyl as an option also so let's keep that theory alive also...

Lars S

Yes I agree, lets do so by all means

dawie · Post by **dawie** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:08 am

There is someone in Norway fitting a 911 6-cylinder into a 412.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2993318

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:45 am

Hi Wally, yeah the story behind the 411/412 is definitely a confusing one! Roland Kunz says that a pushrod flat 6 based on Type 1 architecture was considered as a power source for the 411/412 (although he doesn’t cite his sources) Jani’s find seems to back this up though, with the article he found on the Oettinger WBX-6. Roland also says that Porsche were considering a low profile 911 flat six for use in the Type 4 and that test mules were produced. Maybe they used a horizontal fan like the 917 (and a certain turbocharged, white 1303!), who knows?

Did you read Judith Rastall’s story about the development of the 411/412? It is very interesting!!! http://rastall.com/412/412vw-ea240.html She got her information from Fokko Haanstra who lives in the Netherlands, I don’t suppose you know of him in Dutch Type 4 cirlces?? Judith says a Porsche flat-6 engine was considered as a Type 4 alternative although she knows of no EA number for this study.

I quote from Judith’s website:

The most important Type 4 alternatives considered were:
• Fitting of a more sporty air-cooled flat-four engine in the VW 411’s rear, developing 66 kW/90 hp (no EA-number is known). A two-door VW 411 prototype with such an engine participated in the Monte Carlo Rally of 1969. This car officially participated on behalf of the Dutch Volkswagen importer Pon’s Automobielhandel N.V. and was driven by Jhr Gijs van Lennep and navigator Jooks Klein. They finished 16th overall and 4th in their class, after three Porsche 911s!
• Fitting of a liquid-cooled flat-four engine, the so-called “Wasserboxer” or “WBX”, developing 66 kW/90 hp, either in the front or in the rear, combined with front- or rear-wheel drive. In November 1967 at least one prototype was built but no EA-number is known.
• Fitting of a Porsche flat-six engine at the rear (no EA-number is known, but this has echoes of the VW-Porsche 914 which was available with either the VW 4-cylinder or the Porsche 6-cylinder engine).
• Fitting of an air-cooled flat-four front engine, combined with front- or rear-wheel drive (EA 247).
• Fitting of a four-cylinder Audi engine in front, combined with front- or rear-wheel drive (EA 259). The testing results with the front-wheel drive version of this prototype were said to be crucial to the final decision on the future of the EA 158 / EA 241 = VW 311 (Type 5). A decision which turned out negative...

Does anyone have any information on the 411 fitted with the ‘sporty’ prototype engine which competed in the 1969 Monte Carlo Rally? I wonder if this engine was based on the production pushrod Type 4 engine or the early OHC prototype version that Roland wrote about?

Interesting too that the Wasserboxer was originally developed for the Type 4, but spent a further 16 years (!!) in development before being launched in the T3 Transporter (Vanagon).

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:50 am

Neil,
my regular source ("The Big VW" book) tells that the Pon 411 was a tuned 411 engine; increased compression ratio to 9.5:1, bigger bore, ported cylinder heads, cam change. The power was told to be 90hp at 6500rpm. The engine had wery little power below 4000rpm, 0-100km was achieved in 14sec and the top speed was 160km/h.
Later the magazine "Guter Fart" had a similar engine made but 10hp less was notised.

The car was also lowered about 5cm by cutting the springs, Koni shocks were installed and an anti sway bar was fitted in the rear. Tyres were 156SR15.
The interior was stripped to save weight, a tachometer was installed, the driver had a sport chair installed and the co-pilot a 411L chair (the car itself was a 411 not "L" model). The headlights were changed to dual lights like later 411E.

Well, thats about it.

Lars s

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:29 pm

Thanks Lars, ‘The Type 4 Bible’ to the rescue again!

Does the book mention if that engine was running carbs or fuel injection?

It’s a pity there isn’t much documentation or photographic evidence on the development of the 411/412 and related projects out there. It would be interesting to see those crazy ideas that were considered for the Type 4 but didn’t make it into production...

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:05 pm

Neil,
sorry it does not tellif it is D-jet or not but I would defenitely guess it had been dual carbs. Also a correction: the tyre were 165SR15 and nothing else.
Yea its sad that we miss a lot of history and pictures about the pre 411:s, but still there ought to be some VW people from that time around being able to tell more stories...

Lars S