timing, new dizzy, no start

[btectonic]

Okay, follow up post. Here's the mystery: car was running yesterday with a 205E but the TDC mark was about 2.5 inches to the left, something like 30 degrees retarded.

Swapped in a correct 205P today, dropped in it by the book and (I suppose predictably so) the car won't start.

As I believe I mentioned this is a rebuild that the builder has never been able to tune correctly. It's under warranty so I'm trying to keep myself from fiddling with it too much so the builder has no good reason to void the warranty.

Had a T3 dizzy in it until yesterday, builder swapped it our for a good 205E off a 1.7 914. Still ran like it was fighting itself, takes grades and hills like a diesel Vanagon.

Has gas, has spark, clean trigger points. Dizzy drive shaft is installed at 12 degrees from the case seam. TPS is spot on, MPS is good, CHT sensor new and correct, AAR is good, all vacuum/air leaks are buttoned up tight. TDC on the fan is definitely TDC. Put the 7.5 and 27 degree marks on there myself per the Pelican template. Charging the now dead battery as I write...

Here's the question: saying the car will start and run with the 205P but only as it ran with the 205E & T3 diz, that is way way retarded. Why would that be the case? Wrong cam?

Cam in upside down?

I'm completely baffled gang.

thnx,
Brad

[david58]

it ran with the 205E & T3 diz, that is way way retarded. Why would that be the case?

If the timing marks are off a tooth on the cam and crank it will never run right. This is really the only thing that can cause that problem.

[Piledriver]

Coil + and - switched?

Can cause fun issues as described due to lame spark, but will idle perfectly.

Unused points commonly oxidize and won't run right if at all, try cleaning them. (This includes fresh out of the box) just mentioning for completeness...

Is the advance mechanism working?
This will cause similar lame power issues.

A timing light can say much...

We assume your timing is set for 28 BTDC at ~3500 RPM with the vac advance temporarily disconnected.

No idea what the deal is with the dist swap/no start issue, is the static timing reasonable?

Never use static timing except for troubleshooting a no start.
The motor doesn't care what the timing is when it's not running.

[btectonic]

Piledriver: can't set the timing, the mark shows up 2.5 inches to the left at 3500 RPM, no matter what d-jet dizzy is in it. Everything else is tight, right, by the book, wires are right, points are right, the entire d-jet system is right like a gyroscope. 205P dizzy's blueprinted, on a machine, works like a brand new sewing machine.

What I'll do in the morning is measure when the exhaust vavle on #1 begins to open, make a mark on the fan, measure, calculate and see if it jives with d-jet cam data. I'm for the "off one tooth" theory.

The car has never run right since the rebuild. Runs marginally better than it did when #2 was dead.

Bogus builder. Skip Tassi if you're in the SFBay, the guy's a loss.

I would have happily done all this myself but I'm a gimp, it's enough to pop the valve covers off. Frosted, I'm tellin' ya....

[Piledriver]

Why can't you adjust the timing again?

If the dist can't be physically rotated far enough, it may just have the drive gear off a tooth, which is a common, simple fix.

(I'm still trying to "see" what's happening, which is hard over the 'net...)

Might be a good idea to verify the TDC mark of the fan.

[raygreenwood]

Yes, long before you suspect teh cam is at issue....you should be able to time it. If the dizzy drive is too far out of whack you may not physically be able to turn the distributor far enough to correct timing before hitting the vac can on the cooling housing. But....you have to try to move the drive to at least see if its timable....before coming to the conclusion that the cam gear may be indexed on teh crank improperly. Ray

[btectonic]

Okay, I'm not describing this well enough.

I'm tuning with a light at full mechanical advance to 27 degrees BTDC. Rebuilt motor (not by me) with less than 3K miles on it. It has never run right since the rebuild, no power, very hot.

All things being equal the d-jet is spot on, everything d-jet is right and working correctly. No air leaks, no vacuum leaks, fixed orifice for the PCV valve, fuel pressure is right and steady, ignition is right and sparky.

The individual distributors aren't at issue, even though I framed the question that way. They all work but the car will only fire up and run when they're set at a degree way way ATDC. They can easily be physically in position where they should be to bring the mark up, both statically and with a light, that's not at issue.

So, when installing any dizzy by the book the car won't run. When trying to time the car with a light the car won't run if the mark is anywhere near the window. In inches the car will run at a provisional paint mark I put on the fan about 2.5 inches to the right of TDC, while at full mechanical advance at 3500 RPM. That's 4.5 or so inches right of 27 degrees, very very roughly that's about 30 degrees ATDC when running the car with the 205E.

I didn't get that far with the 205P yesterday, the battery was dead from cranking, I packed it in for the day. I'm sure the car will run with the 205P in exactly the same retarded position.

TDC is TDC, #1 is at the top of the compression stroke when the TDC mark comes up in the timing window when turning the motor by hand. The distributor drive shaft is in right. The drive dogs on the distributors are oriented correctly.

The car is untuneable with ANY dizzy. The mark won't come up with any d-jet dizzy. No one can time it, not me, not the mechanic that put the motor back in, not any of the mechanics at the shop. The motor is untimeable.

Not because the dizzy won't spin far enough in any one direction but because the car won't run when the dizzy is set at the mark. It won't start. It will only start and run when the timing mark is buried somewhere far to the 3/4 side.

I only have a straight timing light, not one with an advance setting. If I had one with an advance setting I could tell you at what exact degree of timing it will start and run. If I were using the fan as a degree wheel, which I'll have to, the car starts and runs at a mark about 2.5 inches to the right of TDC.

TDC is TDC. Both valves on #1 are closed. It is 0 in piston travel degrees (by my depth guage in the spark plug hole) but may not be in cam degrees.

I originally suspected the car ran like crap because of the T3 dizzy, but it runs like crap with a 205E and an original 205P. Not because all of these distributors are bad/worn out but because it will only run when severely retarded. It also runs really really hot.

[btectonic]

Monday update: 205P is in, the car runs, and predictably, it will only run when the timing mark is nowhere near the window, as described for the 205E and the T3 dizzys, very retarded.

Which is to say, while trying to advance the the timing while the light is on the car and it reving at 3500 rpm with vac advance can hoses off and plugged the car will motor will die.

[Piledriver]

Even if the cam is in wrong, what you are describing makes no sense unless TDC is marked totally wrong, or you are on the wrong mark and massively advanced.

...Put it back just as it was and make the vendor fix it, or take it somewhere with a clue and spend the $.

[btectonic]

Even if the cam is in wrong, what you are describing makes no sense unless TDC is marked totally wrong, or you are on the wrong mark and massively advanced.

...Put it back just as it was and make the vendor fix it, or take it somewhere with a clue and spend the $.

Dude, I can only tell you what's actually happening. This is my third d-jet car, two T3's before this one, I've been through the routine.

TDC is TDC. #1 is at the top of it's travel on the compression stroke with both valves closed when the TDC mark on the fan comes up in the window when turning the motor by hand.

I've used both of my timing lights, both of them can't be broken in exactly the same way.

The car is just the way it was except it has a 022 905 205P (correct and original) in it rather than the 022 905 205E (dizzy for a B d-jet revision Porsche 1.7 914).

The guy will fix it or give me my money back, no worries the CA consumer affairs bureau is on the case. I'm just looking for a viable explanation.

If anyone can point me to d-jet cam data easily let me know, looking for event data not profile spec.

best,
Brad

[Piledriver]

I mean no disrespect, it just makes no sense as you have noticed yourself.

STOCK cam timing would be 33,-3,-3,33 at .040" (IIRC)
In reality, just make sure EO and IC have the SAME #.
(This is much harder than it sounds to do accurately w/o a dial indicator setup, and assumes a straight pattern cam)

Actually "checking TDC" as I meant it means physically verifying the fan index mark(s) are right, or at least the right one.

A long bit of small rubber hose can work by itself, as long as you get it in the squish area and you are careful to triple check ... it won't be perfect, but should be +/- a degree or so.

First, pull all 4 plugs.

You gently stop the piston short of and "bracket" TDC. marking both sides of TDC, then find/mark the middle, which SHOULD be where the mark is. Make sure you hit that one with some nail polish or such.
(do #2 while you are at it for adjusting the valves, mark it different so you can find it in a few months...)

The builder should have verified this, but there is no telling.

A lot of fans have multiple marks...

You really need to do this first in order to check the cam out...

Curious, have you tried timing it by "ear "?
At idle, retard until it slows down, almost dies, then advance until RPM peaks...
back it off (split the difference) and see where you are at.
(Don't drive it that way)

[btectonic]

One more time, TDC is TDC, checked as you described, as I said about seven posts ago.

The car will run ONLY as I have described the condition and the method of "tuning"so far.

ANYONE who would try to tune the car would end up putting the distributor in the same physical orientation to get the car to run. That would be: the mechaninc that reinstalled the motor, me, you, anyone.

If anyone can point me to published stock d-jet event data let me know. Profile data would be good too I can measure duration.

thnx,
Brad

[raygreenwood]

OK...I getcha. When you set the fan timing mark in the notch at "0"...which should mean TDC......and you are on the right stroke....the piston on #1....really is at TDC. So by this, you are pretty dang sure that the cam is in fact set up to the crank gear correctly...am I correct?Make sure it is at TDC...piston at top and both valves closed when you have the "0" in the notch on the fan.

Ok...I'm with you. But....when you are set like that...at TDC with ")" in the nocth ....and the edge of the big ring around the outside of the vaccum can about 1/8" away from......meaning just forward of....the bale wire on the oil breather....where is the rotor pointing on your dizzy? It should be just at the notch on the body of a 205P.

Next....check to make sure the the wires in the plug for the trigger points are in their correct position and have not been switched.
Make sure the proper injector plug goes to the proper injector. Black for back of engine (flywheel side)...white/gray for fan end.

Also...do you know what cam you have?
Also....does this have hydraulics or solids?

Personally it sounds 90* out and may also have teh wrong cam timing for D-jet. Unless you reused teh stock cam, used a stock regrind or used a webh 73 or a Raby cam.....you would not have the right cam. Ray

[btectonic]

OK...I getcha. When you set the fan timing mark in the notch at "0"...which should mean TDC......and you are on the right stroke....the piston on #1....really is at TDC.

Howdy Ray. Yes, measured first fast with a piece of vacuum hose then second time slow and accurate with a dial. Through the #1 spark plug hole. Both valves are closed. TDC on the fan is TDC on piston #1, unquestionably. TDC is TDC.

So by this, you are pretty dang sure that the cam is in fact set up to the crank gear correctly...am I correct

Actually we don't know that.

?Make sure it is at TDC...piston at top and both valves closed when you have the "0" in the notch on the fan.

Yes

Ok...I'm with you. But....when you are set like that...at TDC with ")" in the nocth ....and the edge of the big ring around the outside of the vaccum can about 1/8" away from......meaning just forward of....the bale wire on the oil breather....where is the rotor pointing on your dizzy? It should be just at the notch on the body of a 205P.

The #1 and #2 plug wires on the cap are almost parallel with the case seam, #2 points off to the 3/4 side maybe 1 degree. In *that* position with TDC in the fan housing notch the rotor center line is a little more than 1/8 inch past the notch in the 205P body in clockwise direction.

I would spin it to your described position but I don't know if you mean the fore side of the big flange or the aft side. Either way the difference from it's present position would be huge. If I'm understanding you correctly it would put the 2 and 4 plugs wires on the cap nearly parallel to the case seam, but I might not be seeing what you mean correctly in my minds eye.

In any case the dizzy drive shaft is in at 12 degrees from the case seam at TDC, little side towards 3/4, or to describe it the other way 102 degrees from the fan housing seam.

Next....check to make sure the the wires in the plug for the trigger points are in their correct position and have not been switched.
Make sure the proper injector plug goes to the proper injector. Black for back of engine (flywheel side)...white/gray for fan end.

Injectors and trigger points are unquestionably connected correctly, wires 21 and 22 checked for continuity at the ECU connector strip, wire 29 on #4, 28 on #3, 27 on #2 and 26 on #1.

The rest of the djet is tops, it's fine. Not super fine tuned like you guys do but functioning as new.

Also...do you know what cam you have?
Also....does this have hydraulics or solids?

New DJet cam, solid lifters. The motor is completely stock, except 1.8 pistons, he claimed to have built it at 8.3:1.

Personally it sounds 90* out and may also have teh wrong cam timing for D-jet. Unless you reused teh stock cam, used a stock regrind or used a webh 73 or a Raby cam.....you would not have the right cam. Ray

I can only trust that the builder is being honest when he says the stock cam is in the car.

The car has a bit more power than it did with one dead cylinder but no where near the power it should have with a new motor. I know how these drive, this one does not drive that way. 10mpg in the city, 24mpg on the highway between 65-70mph. Runs hot.

That's all I know.

The guy's taking it back next Thursday and cracking the case. So he says. It's the kind of situation where I'll have to go on Friday morning and make him show me the motor on his bench.

[Piledriver]

I still can't figure out how it runs 30 degrees retarded at all.
Perhaps it's something that is out of the troubleshooting loop...
Plugged exhaust?