Without a LOT of work.....there are no other trannys other than the automatic that fit into the type 4.
Also bear this in mind.....the clutch master and slave are very simple. Seriously...go to your local shop and just "look" at the vanagon master cylinder. It is the exact volume and stroke of the type 4.....and simply needles an angle iron bracket and some shims to bolt right up and can be had for about $75. One thing that can also work is the slave cylinder from an Audi 5000. It is smaller in diameter...which means that it "should" have a higher pressure. The stroke is very similar. You could make a simple bushing and bracket to mount it in the hole in the type 4. Ray
clutch master for a '73
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champagne superbeetle
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:51 am
Thanks, Ray. I appreciate your patience as I explore what I think are possibilities.
It would be simpler if I already had the car in my possession. I am actually amazed the car seems still available -- or dismayed if it is available because it has other unmentioned issues. It may be two weeks before I can arrange to look at it and see if shipping is worth it. It may be gone by then, or I may have settled for a different car that is geographically closer and more to my wife's and daughter's liking. An automatic is out of everyone's priority.
I still have some hope. I appreciate the support.
It would be simpler if I already had the car in my possession. I am actually amazed the car seems still available -- or dismayed if it is available because it has other unmentioned issues. It may be two weeks before I can arrange to look at it and see if shipping is worth it. It may be gone by then, or I may have settled for a different car that is geographically closer and more to my wife's and daughter's liking. An automatic is out of everyone's priority.
I still have some hope. I appreciate the support.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
This is not to discourage you at all.....but trust me...the car WILL have lots of other issues. Unless it is a regular driving vehicle....and even then sometimes....there will be lots of things that can leave you walking.
If this car has sat for some time...there are things you should check before driving off especially if the drive home is some distance.
Things to take with you or buy on location:
Grease
Transmission oil.
Engine oil and filter.
Some metric vacuum hose, especially 3mmm ID and 12mm ID.
A fuel filter
A good used fuel pressure regulator
A tire patch kit.
Brake fluid...two quarts.
Some 14 gauge stranded wire, telecom style butt connectors (radio shack) a good pair of crimpers
A spare injector.
A fuel pressure gauge
In general, sitting still you will find the clutch disc sticky on the mainshaft.
The tranny oil will have condesation and should bechanged before driving to keep from getting home with a trashed gearbox.
Inspect the front ball joints and tie rod ends carefully.
I would buy a $9 self bleeder kit and throw it in your kit.
Also a spare coil, and a points and condensor set could save you from walking. Ray
If this car has sat for some time...there are things you should check before driving off especially if the drive home is some distance.
Things to take with you or buy on location:
Grease
Transmission oil.
Engine oil and filter.
Some metric vacuum hose, especially 3mmm ID and 12mm ID.
A fuel filter
A good used fuel pressure regulator
A tire patch kit.
Brake fluid...two quarts.
Some 14 gauge stranded wire, telecom style butt connectors (radio shack) a good pair of crimpers
A spare injector.
A fuel pressure gauge
In general, sitting still you will find the clutch disc sticky on the mainshaft.
The tranny oil will have condesation and should bechanged before driving to keep from getting home with a trashed gearbox.
Inspect the front ball joints and tie rod ends carefully.
I would buy a $9 self bleeder kit and throw it in your kit.
Also a spare coil, and a points and condensor set could save you from walking. Ray
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SureFit Travis
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:23 pm
Hey folks,
I see that there is another clutch master rebuild kit available on that famously-famous on-line auction, by the seller sherrie507.
Although, I have to share my bit of experience: I brought my 412 out of winter storage in the spring, and my clutch pedal went straight to the floor with no effort. I had to pump it up to get it to even work the slightest bit. Now, my car was only in covered storage for the winter, but wasn't heated....so I figure the cold temps we had over this past winter (Canada) is what did the damage.
I ASSUMED that it was my clutch master that was shot because of the brake fluid on the floor mat (thank got there was a mat there to catch it), but it was actually my brake master that was leaking. It had drained the resevoir enough to introduce air into my clutch circuit.
I rebuilt the brake master cylinder (with one of Sherrie's kits), bled the entire brake circuit enough to expel the old fluid, and then bled the clutch circuit the same. Voila, problem solved.
My point: don't assume it's the clutch master (or slave) until you have checked the car yourself.
Yes, these cars can be challenging, especially finding parts for them (make friends with the people here!), and understanding the D-Jet fuel injection, but they are definitely the nicest riding air-cooled VW I have ever driven. I love my type-3 fastback too, but this 412 is a dream to drive.
Good luck,
Travis
I see that there is another clutch master rebuild kit available on that famously-famous on-line auction, by the seller sherrie507.
Although, I have to share my bit of experience: I brought my 412 out of winter storage in the spring, and my clutch pedal went straight to the floor with no effort. I had to pump it up to get it to even work the slightest bit. Now, my car was only in covered storage for the winter, but wasn't heated....so I figure the cold temps we had over this past winter (Canada) is what did the damage.
I ASSUMED that it was my clutch master that was shot because of the brake fluid on the floor mat (thank got there was a mat there to catch it), but it was actually my brake master that was leaking. It had drained the resevoir enough to introduce air into my clutch circuit.
I rebuilt the brake master cylinder (with one of Sherrie's kits), bled the entire brake circuit enough to expel the old fluid, and then bled the clutch circuit the same. Voila, problem solved.
My point: don't assume it's the clutch master (or slave) until you have checked the car yourself.
Yes, these cars can be challenging, especially finding parts for them (make friends with the people here!), and understanding the D-Jet fuel injection, but they are definitely the nicest riding air-cooled VW I have ever driven. I love my type-3 fastback too, but this 412 is a dream to drive.
Good luck,
Travis
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
That is straight up correct. There are a couple problems to beware of. As rubber parts age....they increase in durometer (hardness). Due to this the ylose some elasticity and flexability. They can also actually shrink a very small amount. All of this can conspire to allow bypass and leakage.
Be very careful when buying new old stock kits. Yes they are the best way to go...but be prepared. They can sometimes not work. A lot of these kits if they are NOS....can be 25-30 years old. If they are still powdered and have been stored properly and the bags are showing no signs of oily by-product seeping out of the rubber you should be fine. No warranty on the lifespan though.
Storing a 411/412 can cause the problem Travis noted....repeatedly. The problem is that the master cylinders are on the inside of the car. They gather moisture and it does not evaporate being inside of the car. I Find it actually helps to remove the dust boot from the cylinder when storing the car. The condensation puts a rust ring on the outside of the cylinder which causes the outer shaft seal to not seat which can bypass air and fluid. Ray
Be very careful when buying new old stock kits. Yes they are the best way to go...but be prepared. They can sometimes not work. A lot of these kits if they are NOS....can be 25-30 years old. If they are still powdered and have been stored properly and the bags are showing no signs of oily by-product seeping out of the rubber you should be fine. No warranty on the lifespan though.
Storing a 411/412 can cause the problem Travis noted....repeatedly. The problem is that the master cylinders are on the inside of the car. They gather moisture and it does not evaporate being inside of the car. I Find it actually helps to remove the dust boot from the cylinder when storing the car. The condensation puts a rust ring on the outside of the cylinder which causes the outer shaft seal to not seat which can bypass air and fluid. Ray
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champagne superbeetle
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:51 am
There is another car (a Vanagon) in the same area my family wants me to check out. I haven't heard from that seller yet but if I fly out there, I will try to arrange to see this 412. I can then decide if the Vanagon is worth getting and get an in-person sense of what is going on with the 412.
There is a chance the Vanagon doesn't inspire me but the 412 does. Then, I would have the 412 shipped to the shop I frequent. The Vanagon could inspire me but he 412 doesn't. I will report why it didn't for everyone who has been helping me along with this process.
Of course, there is a chance both cars are a bust.
But, if the Vanagon is worthy and the 412 seems worthy despite the reported clutch master (I am left to assume that it is indeed the clutch master since I have not seen the car in person yet), getting both isn't totally unaffordable if I could tow the 412.
Okay, the chances are one in fifty ... but ... can a 412 be safely towed for 2,000 miles without a trailor?
There is a chance the Vanagon doesn't inspire me but the 412 does. Then, I would have the 412 shipped to the shop I frequent. The Vanagon could inspire me but he 412 doesn't. I will report why it didn't for everyone who has been helping me along with this process.
Of course, there is a chance both cars are a bust.
But, if the Vanagon is worthy and the 412 seems worthy despite the reported clutch master (I am left to assume that it is indeed the clutch master since I have not seen the car in person yet), getting both isn't totally unaffordable if I could tow the 412.
Okay, the chances are one in fifty ... but ... can a 412 be safely towed for 2,000 miles without a trailor?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yes.....But best to take the drive shafts loose until you sort everything out. Also.....get some rust penetrant and back off the brake adjusters from the drums in the rear. It would also be worthwhile...not knowing the condition....to take your 24mm socket (before you remove the driveshafts) and take the rear wheel hub off and pack some grease in the rear wheel bearings. This all really depends upon how long the car ahs been sitting still. Ray
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champagne superbeetle
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:51 am