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Okay, I replaced the injector seals last year with stock-style replacements ( http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?P ... D261%2DKIT ), but where does one find the CIS seals that are best. Man, you think finding 411/412 parts are tough....I think any of the parts stores would laugh harder at me if I asked for Saab parts.

Any on-line sources for these that anyone can suggest?

Oh, and runner boots were done last year too....however, without silicone.

Now, about that Aux. Air Regulator: I have taken the body apart (as the heating element was broken/burnt); until I find a replacement, am I best to fix it permanently open, or permanently closed?


Travis

I would go for the fully closed position avoiding a much too high idle at warm engine, however this will give you a to low idle during warm up but this is easier to live with.


Lars S

Go for fully closed like Lars suggested. It will mean that you will have to rev the gas for a minute or two....or.... ...you could simply rig a choke cable to it. That really its main function.
You can also use a late model version of AAR...like those used on late aircooled and watercooled cars. Those that are sometimes called the "witches hat" version...because they are long and tapered. They are a little bit to fit properly...but are plentiful and come indozens of levels of calibration.

The issue with stock runner boots...is that eve nif tehy are new...they are a slip on fit. They swell when hot....and those long runners vibrate...so they leak. Get some 40mm VW radiator hose clamps at the breakers yard and put a single one on boot...on the runnner end after pushing teh boot hard against the plenum. It should do the trick.

CIS seals....ask for seals for say...an 82-83 VW golf with CIS. Any car that had CIS used the same seal...VW, Golf, Volvo, Saab etc. Most of the VW's used neoprene. Those are just fine......much better than stock. Many cars just happened to use the green or brown viton version. No really any better at sealing...just lasts longer. Ray

Thanks for the tips, guys. I'm still learning how the D-jet fully functions, and assumed that I would want it fixed closed (which is what I did when I cracked it open).

I will now be seeking those injector seals, and checking out those runner hoses.

I only have a couple of weeks to get this stuff figured out before the show!


Travis

Picked up a bunch ( 8 ) of injector seals today for '83 Rabbit 1.8L. They didn't show them in their stock, but found them on a shelf at the parts store. My preferred partsman insisted I take all 8, but what the heck....they were only about $2.00. They look like little donuts, so I will be checking them out for fit tonight. I think I might completely pull the runners and re-check/re-seal for leaks. I also picked up the Permatex Copper for those runner tubes.

And now I must get at 'er!

Travis

Okay......I completely pulled off the intake system (again ), and replaced all intake gaskets (again), siliconed the runner tubes, replaced the injector seals (again) with the newer donut style, completed the PCV valve mod (Bill K's version), new cork gasket on the base of the oil filler, and have clamped every possible vacuum line running across the engine to all plenum ports and sensors.

I have not yet done a hot valve adjustment, but will tackle that on Saturday, along with new valve cover gaskets.....new pushrod tubes & seals were done about a month ago. I will do a final timing check at that point as well.

Upon engine fire-up, it still ran the same, and even though the idle screw is fully in, it still has a fairly high idle.

I need more of a description on the decelleration valve and the adjustments. Mine is a cylidrical unit beside the MPS with a large hose entering the backside, another large hose exiting the side of the cylinder, and a small hose at the other end. Which hose am I pulling to check for vacuum readings......or am I checking an exposed port on the valve after a hose has been removed?

Interestingly enough, I went through the stack of receipts I got from Jen when I bought the car, and they date back to the original purchase from the car (even have the original California pink-slip). There were complaints back in '78 about bucking during decelleration, and this complaint reappears in later service receipts.

For all I know, this car could have always had the fuel injection issues, and poor fuel economy. I do have a spare MPS along with a spare CPU stashed away if needed.

So, if anyone has a step-by-step run-down on checking that decelleration valve, I'd appreciate hearing it! Oh, and does anyone stock the rubber TB-to-plenum seals? I think mine is still okay, but I'd put on a fresh one if I knew where to find one.

Thanks,

Travis

The only seal available for the TB to plenum is the one from teh later vanagon. Its slightly different but works fine.

The decel valve is like this: Essentially you have three hoses connecting to it. The one that dumps to the drivers side of the plenum closest to where the MPS hose plugs in....is the final downstream side under vacuum. Leave that one connected.
The other hose connection of the same size....which is the longer hose.....goes to an air source that is clean and not vacuum. That is the supply hose for air to be bled past to the plenum during decel. I have no vacuum diagram in front of me at the moment...so I am going from memory.

Then you have a small bore (3mm?) hose going to a vacuum nipple with a locknut and 7mm adjusting collar.

Pull off the supply side hose.....leaving the hose between the plenum and valve connected. Leave the small bore vacuum line connected.

Start the engine, warm it up.
First check: At idle.....put your finger over the open port of the supply side hose you have removed. If you feel any vacuum whatsoever or it changes the idle....you either have a broken valve or it needs adjustment.

Check #2: Increase rpm smoothly and slowly up through about 3200 rpm. You should feel no vacuum at the port you have your finger on. If you do...you rae either out of adjustment or have a bad valve.

To adjust the valve...you loosen the locknut. Turning the vacuum nipple clockwise tightens it....and makes it where you must have higher vacuum to open the valve. Counter-clockwise means the valve opens with less vacuum.

So....if during any of teh first two checks...it leaked or passed vacuum just slighly.....turn the vacuum nipple in maybe a half turn or so until it quits passing vaccum.

Final check and adjustment: The qualifications for getting this far and doing this is that the valve up until this point passes no vacuum with throttle open ...up to about 3200-3500 rpm.

Bear in mind....all of this is with throttle open and engine revving. If at any time during these checks...you snap the throttle closed...you "might" immediatley feel vacuum on the port you have your finger over.

Here is what you are looking for if the valve is properly adjusted.
With any revving of the engine....at any open throttle position...you should feel no vacuum at the feed port you have your finger over....from idle up to and over 3200 rpm to redline.....this is with throttle open.

In addition to this....with rpms from to 3200 rpm and down to idle...when you snap the throttle closed (which increases vacuum)....you should feel NO vacuum at the port you have your finger over.

You should only feel vacuum...meaning the valve should open to bleed air past.....when you are over 3200...with the throttle closed...decelerating.

The object here is to adjust the vacuum diaphram tight enough that the valve will only open when you have the extremely high vacuum that only occours over about 3200 rpm with throttle fully closed.

It is this high vacuum level we are trying to keep away from the MPS....because it can pull it down all the way past idle enrichment levels.....while teh rpm is very high and you are at maximum advance.
Yes...it technically is an emissions part....but it can keep you from a moment of detonation at high speed deceleration as well.

This is I believe...in the Haynes manual. It may also be in John Muirs book. Ray

Ray,

I did the hot valve adjustment -- .003 in. Sure quietened down the valve noise, and yet it wasn't too tight to hear popping in the exhaust, so I am quite happy with it at the moment. I traditionally used to do the .006 cold adjustment, and left it at that......but I always thought it was a bit noisy this way.

Running the engine tonight with a hose over the exhaust to route it out of my shop, I could hear hissing like a vacuum leak. After recently replacing the injector seals, clamping all hoses, and using silicone on the runner hoses, I thought I had it tackled. Couldn't find a leak by spraying carb cleaner around any of these areas.

Then I happened to grab and pinch the PCV hose -- hissing stopped, and the RPM's dropped. Now, I haven't replaced the valve cover gaskets yet (they don't leak oil), however I plan to tomorrow. Aside from this, are there typically any other areas that could cause such a vacuum issue? From what I understood from previous threads, the PCV system is pretty much a closed loop. Both hoses are attached to each head as well. I also replaced the cork gasket at the base of the oil filler box. I'm thinking that this is the major vacuum loss that has been giving me most of my problems.

I look at this PVC system, and wonder why VW didn't fit this hose on the other side of the throttle body.

I also removed the epoxy from the outer stop plug of my MPS tonight, and is pretty much ready for adjustment there.....but obviously have a few more areas to focus on first.

Awaiting your advice....

Travis

This is a classic issue with the PCV. The problem is one of two things.If you remove the PCV valve and inspect it.. (1) the thin plastic valve flap within is usually cracked venting all of the time. or......
(2) Because of a combination of two things...vaccum from the manifold and pressure from teh crankcase...the valve is staying open.

That is one of the main problems with this valve. It opens NOT just because of case pressure....but from a combination of case pressure and manifold vacuum.

If its not cracked and is opening from a combination of case pressure and manifold vacuum...that is even worse...because it then will open at intervals that are random to any control measures teh ECU is introducing.

My advice is to take a pick....and totally crack the thin sealing plate out of the PCV valve. Make it a straight through 12mm nipple fitting. Then....in the 12mm red hose that leads from this nipple to the plenum....insert a 13mm piece of plastic rod...tight. Drill a 2mm hole through it as a constant PCV bleed.....as a start. You may need to go uo to 3mm.

This way...you get actually more PCV scavenge than you did with the original valve...but since it is constant...you do not get a fluctuation that is upsetting to the MPS.
At this point you will find that your idle is down lower...and steadier.

You will usually have to adjust idle and the main rod in the MPS to compensate.....but at least you can compensate. Ray

I already followed your advice and did the PVC valve modification (previously mentioned in this thread), and did it Bill K.'s method with the vacuum hose epoxied through the center of the valve. However, my idle is definitely not lower, but rather it has become higher. I will replace the valve cover gaskets today to see if this changes anything.

Also, am I just looking at adjusting the outer stop plug in this scenario, or am I looking at adjusting the inner screws? I would have to make a tool to get that outer-adjuster in the diaphragm if I need to turn it too.

Travis

Ok. is your outer stop plug already "un-epoxied"? If so....whatever you do...do not yet change its position.
The outer stop plug position will have nothing to do with idle. It will have tons to do with flat spots coming off the line and/or flat spots upon resume of acceleration whil crusing at part throttle (highway speeds and steady state medium speeds like 40+ mph).

(1) as already noted, do your best to watch for vacuum leaks
(2) Check the 0-ring at the filler funnel on the oil breather (if you have a filler funnel).
(3) make sure non of your vacuum advance chambers is leaking.
(4) the moment you can plug the line from teh decel valve to teh plenum where itconnects near the MPS hose. Just pull it loose from teh decel valve and clamp an 8mm bolt in the end. In this way you can be sure its not a decel valve issue.
(5) Make sure your auxiliary air regulator is all the way closed.
(6) and this is a common problem. At idle....reach over with your hand and artifically close the throttle "tighter " than normal. If idle drops you have some issues with the centering of your throttle plate or you need a stronger return spring.
(7) make sure your fuel pressure is not excessive.
(8) what was the diameter of the orifice that you put into the PCV line.

(9) Very important. make sure your MPS will hold vacuum indefinatley. You can either put a vacuum hose on it and suck on it and put your toungue over the end...or use a hand vacuum pump. No more than 15" of vacuum. It should not drop apprecaibly over 3-5 minutes.

(10) If you have the TB off to replace that o-ring...lets adjust it properly and check it for slop. The book adjustment will cause issues.

When the last of these has been checked....and corrected....you are Ready to adjust.

Warm the engine up.

At this point...make sure your timing is on...and not too high. Like no more the 12 btdc at idle.

If your ECU has a gray control knob..twist it both directions and count how many clicks is has. I think its about 24. Put it right in teh center at about 12 clicks.

You can only removethe outer stop plug when the engine is running...or else the copper plate and spring pressure will be too high and you will not know the gap. The outer plug must turn very easily. No bunged up threads.

Mark the outer plug in relation to the body of the MPS with something permanent...like fine point laundry marker.

At idle..carefully turn the outer stop plug in until you just feel it seat against the copper plate. If you go even .001 more than srface contact with the plate...it will heavily upset the idle...and you will know instantly that you went too far. Just back it out a smidge until idle is normal (wether its too high or not it must be steady).

Make note of how many turns that plug needed to go in to seat. In a car that is normally idling (meaning not yours)....it will usually have no less than 1/2 turn in....and usually no more than 1 to 1.25 turns out.
Now that you know how to get it back in........start turning the plug out and make note of how many turns it takes to remove the plug.

In this manner you will know ....how many turns to put the plug back in.....to its original setting.....NOT to the point where it is seated against the copper plate.

Why did we do this? Because once you have corrected the idle....you will be able to see that the copper plate is drawn in farther....and your original number of turns needed to contact the copper plate fron the first starting point that you marked (probably about 1/2-3/4 turns.).....will become larger because the plate is sucked in farther.

At this point with the outer plug out...and the engine idling....you will be looking at the copper plate. You will see in the center.....a shiny flange crimped to the copper diaphram about 15mm in diameter. It is this shiny ring that the outer plug bears against.

Inside of that ring youwill see a screw that a thin flat blade screwdriver sits in. That is ths main armature adjustment.

BEWARE...CAUTION

If you look carefully you will also note a recessed inverted hexagonal surround to this center armature screw. That is ALSO a seperate adjustment. It is the INNER armature stop.

The relationship of this inner armature stop to the copper diaphram MUST NOT BE distrurbed...while you are turning the center screw.

The most "proffesional way to do this.....and the most difficult.....is to find out what size allen key fits this recess......chop off about a 1.5-2.0 " length of that allen key...and drill a hole through the center.....that your thin flat blade screwdriver fits through.

If you are crafty...you can take a piece of hard plastic...or alluminum rod...and file the sides to make your own allen key....then drill a hole through the center.

Once you have all of this sorted out. Mark with permanent marker...a fine line on the 15mm ring...then mark the inverted hex adjustment to that ring.
Next....mark one side of teh center flat adjusting screw so you know which side you are calling the start point......and mark its start location to the hex ring around it.

In this manner...you can visually see that the hex ring is not moving...while you move the inner screw...and can see how far yoy have turned the center screw in relation to the hex ring that you are holding still.

At this stage.....here is what we are doing. If all else is tight....no air bypass leaks of any kind....you are idling to high because you too much air for the fuel allotment....OK?

So..we want to increase your fuel allotment.

A bit of explaination. At idle you have high vacuum in the MPS. It causes a negative pressure that does two things at once (a) it causes the aneroid chambers which have a set pressure in them...to expand outward...or swell up. This pushes the armature rod away from it farther into the coils....giving you less fuel. (2) at the same time...this existing high vacuum sucks the copper plate inward.

To further illustrate how this part works...when you open the throttle ...vacuum is displaced by atmospheric pressure. The aneroid chamber collapses....pulling the armature rod out of teh coil....giving you fuel. Acceleration speed...or the quickness of this rods movement....is multiplied...by the copper diaphram being pushed outward by this fast rush of inlet air. It flexe outward...allowing the rod to move "quicker"...not farther. But...if when you are done...you have teh outer stop plug adustment too far out from the ring...it will allow the armature to move too far...giving you a rich flat spot. Worry about that later. Its easy to adjust.

The object here....is to release some spring tension from the center adjustment screw.....so the armature pulls out of the coils ever so slightly...giving a higher fuel allotment.

Here is the KEY.....a minute adjustment will drop the idle....but as it does that...it will for a split second....also cause higher vacuum...expanding the aneroid slightly and pushing the rod into the coils again.

The object is a slight adjustment....until vacuum equalizes at the engines theorteical maximum and the aneroids will no longer expand. Then each minute adjustment you do..will only pull the armature out of the coil....adding fuel...and decreasing idle.


I am saying this because the first minute adjustment you make...may just for a few seconds or less drop the idle..then it will "submarine" back up.....do not be alarmed.

One last check before adjusting. Check your CHT reading after warm-up. If it is maxed down at about 70 ohms...it is running you lean. Especially if its not really hot outside. For the purposes of adjusting...so that teh ChT going up and down does not mess with you. Many times I will disconnect the CHT...but install a 100 ohm resistor in its place. I usually find better results by putting a balast resistor in line permanetly so that the CHT nevers goes below 100-125 ohms...but 100 ohms will suffice.


So.....you will be turning the screw....at first....in 1/8th or 1/10th turns....very small encrements.
You will be turning the screw outward....to make it richer. About 1/8 turn. Then install the outer plug screw turn it in to teh proper original start point and rev it a few times. Then let it settle down and make sure the throttle is closing all the way.

Do this a few times until the idle starts downward to something sane....with no more than about 3 turns outward on the idle screw of the TB.

Put the outer plug back in and drive it on a set course. make sure your engine and oil temps are pretty normal.

Do get flat spots? Hesitation? submarining idle etc..?

If you get hesitations off the line...have an assistant observe to see wether its a rich flat spot or a lean flat spot.
If its rich...adjust teh outer plu g in about 1/5th turn at a time until it quits.
If its a lean flat spot...adjust it in about 1/5th turn at atime until it quits.

When you get a stable idle between 850 and 1000 max.....your outer plug should be optimally in a range of about 3/4 turns to 1.25 turns range ...with minimum of about 3/4 turns from seating to a maximum 1.5 turns from seating....with a stable idle.

If the outer plug seems to want to be a little too far out to not have lean flat spots ...you probably have throttkle valve switch issues. Ray

Heavy man......heavy.

Okee-dokee, I will print this out, re-read it, and play with it when I feel confident that I understand what I am doing.

You may never hear from me again .

Thanks Ray,


Travis

Really just spend a lot of time inspecting the MPS with the car off...and realizing what all the parts do and how they move and thinking about how you move them...and how you mark them. As long is everything is accuratly and permanently marked.....you can really play and turn things all you want to see how the part reacts.

Once you start adjusting....you can actually adjust tehse as well with driving and tweeking as well as you can on a dyno. It just takes a while. Also...as noted...make yourself a course....maybe 3-10 miles at most ...so you can drive the car in almost all conditions.

This gets difficult if you are adjusting during an extreme in weather. If its 100F outside or 35F outside...you can still adjust....but just be sure of what your CHT and ambient air temp sensors are doing to you.

This is why I recommend using a variable resistor plugged into each one of those instead of the sensor itself. Ray

Wait....before you go too far.....re-do your PCV fix.

We need to find the exact diameter of the hose you put through the PCV valve.

Its kind of odd. I recommend about a 3mm orifice...only because thats where I arrived at on "MY" vehicle. It could very well be 2mm...maybe even less.

But...its clear that when you "pinch" the pcv line...your idle drops.

Now its true that you generally MUST do an MPS readjustment after you do the PCV valve mod....but I just want to be sure you are not getting it too large to start with. If you do...the adjustment to the MPS may be so severe that your throttle response may suffer.

From the sound of it...you should be spot on and just needing an MPS adjustment.

Ray

Sorry to post mid conversation! But how did you do the timing?? Did you do it at the high rpm like the sticker specs? WHat is it 3400 or 2800rpm?? ALso what is your fuel pressure set at?? I though I had that issue and it was timing or fuel pressures? Didn't I send you or PO a good MPS?? Maybe I confused and it was my deceleration side of the dist. vacuum can.... Bill