supercharger set ups

[nunit]

yeah im going for a down low torquer id like to add some 1.25 rockers and clean up the ports i mean it already hauls ass for a 1776 with semi hemi heads the compression is low so running say 10psi wouldnt be impossible and with the megajolt and meth injection it probably wouldnt be so bad but what kind of power could i expect i like acceleration more than top speed so i guess my challenge is to find a sc12 does anyone make a make a megajolt kit for the vw, i think mario does...

[nunit]

couldnt i route it to blow through my webers than i could intercool it

[fast Ed]

I'm sure that blow through would be possible with an IC, just a bunch more plumbing obviously, and prep on the carbs.

Send me a p.m. if you don't have any luck finding an SC12 when you're ready to tackle the project ... I may be talked in to selling the one I have.


cheers
Ed N.

[my_medusa]

@faster ED
i don't think its possible to close the bonnet, joel had a newer bonnet and it doesn't close.neybe he knows exaclty, but hte sc12 is very long in compare to a amr500 and 300.
i will put the amr500 engine in an ovali and it should be close.
the amr500 engine is also a 1200cc but my goal is 100-120hp. still 36hp but everything improved. to much to told.

the 36hp engine with amr300 and nearly stock just the cam is a 270° with 8,1mm valvelift! tiny.
we think between 60-70hp. we will dyno it in spring. 1600 stock engines are breakfast for that blown 36hp "little screamer".
0,9 bar at 1500 rpm are possible.

@nunit
is it stock cam and heads?
1,25:1 rockers are good with blower.
and yes you can blow through it...but hte space for double webbers, sc12 and intercooler is not there
i would go like joel did. easy way and very driveable 100-120hp and hell of tourque.

[nunit]

110 cam stock heads i figure the 1.25 would give me some more lift while im at do a clean up port job add hd springs and pushrods it will pull 7000 in first as it is ith the stock heads. ed how much would it take to part with the sc12 and i would prefer to go draw through sidedraft maybe someone will trade for my acn net svda and 44's that would help keep the cost down. how much torque do you think it would make

[my_medusa]

w110 +1,25:1+ supercharger....not good its to much for boost with this cam(more than on turbo because there is not that much backpressure).it will work for sure, but i thing with stock rocker it will be more drivable.
just the w110+supercharger...OK but for a tourquer i would go with w100 or another typ of cam.
i had a 270° cam in the 36hp enigine without blower it ends at ca 3500rpm with power. with supercharger it will be abit more that 4500rpm peak and this was with heads which volumetric efficecy is worst that vw ever build.both in 4th gear.
but if you have the w110 and want to use it..it is ok.
7000rpm in first gear tell nothing. this engine will have its peak at about 5500rpm-max 6000rpm right?
that cam and blower will steal you some tourque in low rpm. maybe it would be good to drive with less boost and more compression ratio.

but just my 2cent

[Buggin_74]

hi joel..good to know that you are tere too. now you going subaru engine?is that right?
you told its good up to mild 1916cc thats not really true.
you forgott that you nearly spin your blower 1:1 that supercharger is minimum good up to 12000RPM
the toyota guys also go over 200hp. with a intercooler and efi i will say ok 20000cc is a usefull max. for that blower.
but you are right 10 psi is really a good boost level for this blower and this setup.


nunit want a tourquer low rpm if am i right.

and hallo mr. monday...impressive;)
this will be a pure drag engine right?how much cc?
kind of same setup that "rennkaefer" use on his 2,9 typ4 just different kind of blower. i would love to here the sound when its done...twinscrew will make some horror sound

how much boost you wont to push into it? am i right that the beltsystem is pk6? will this be enough?
i like your setup with the throttle befor supercharger, i think that will make it more drivable on the strip.
really good. keep on going.

i over drive mine alot more than 1:1
SC12s run 10psi stock on 4AGZE and theres overdrive pulleys out there to take them beyond that
i think the biggest is the nevo pulley at 175mm which with the smaller MAP blower pulley runs 15psi

beyond that though they self destruct from the heat, the flourine coating on the lobes starts to lift

but in a draw through setup like i had the fuel mix running through them helps to cool it


Ed, i wouldnt bother with a any of the little AMR aisin blowers, there too small for a vw motor
even the larger AMR500 is still rated for 1L engine
an SC12 is more than double the capacity of them

a guy i know that lives not far from me had an AMR on a stock 1500 and it ended up self destructing due to being overdriven just to get any boost out of it. was running about 5PSI from memory

[Buggin_74]

oh yeah with how i mounted my SC12 the decklid needed stand offs at the top to shut

there was no other way around this
i just made a rain tray to stop water getting in the air cleaner and it was fine, drove it for over a year like that

i did have an SU carby i was going to try on it which would have freed up alot of room but after running it with twin 40mm throats i didnt think i could handle dropping back to a single 1 3/4" CV carb

the fanshroud is the problem, Steve Rae chopped away his to fit the blower on the last one he made but i had no intention of ever going that far
vw engines are so finicky with air flow in the shroud

[my_medusa]

I understand your angle and don't want to hijack you joel, but look at your own pic...

this is not more than 1:1-1,1:1 both pulley are nearly the same....to have a 1,3:1 the supercharger pulley have to be 3/4 of the crank pulley.
and even a 1,3:1 is just about 7000 rpm blower speed at 5500 engine rpm..thats not a big deal for a sc12.

also look at this:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsS ... /index.htm

m62 eaton is less in displacement 1l/rev but can go 14000rpm max. so its nearly exact the same displacement at the end in compare to sc12 that makes 1,2l/rev and max. 12000rpm.
eaton told they are good for 2,5l-4,0l capacity...depents on the engine,boost,rpm,intercooling and even more.

and how you self say...15psi was not good for the coating. boost is more important in heat making than rpm .rpm is more important for longlive of the supercharger bearings.
i don't know the map of an sc12 supercharger, but look at the m62 that would be compared to the sc12...
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... 128484.gif
do you see that the blower the more goes under 4000RPM his efficency fall much more than bigger steps over 10000rpm?
when did you had full boost? and in your setup the blower is mostly at about 2000-4000rpm.
thats no problem it works fine. but the blower is too big for a 1600-1800cc vw bug.and your setup was very good in my eyes.
the original engine is not a compare to this cc typ1...the VE of this engine should be about 90%, vw bug heads about 75%. lets say the engine 1600 had 90 hp, single throttle and without blower. a typ1 with w110 and a single throttle had maybe 2000cc and 90hp at 5000RPM.our engines flow like poop in compare to modern watercooled engines and our valvetrain is even poop too.
the most people thinking wrong about supercharger. start thinking right. its just a pump....and the engine is another pump.
the blower should delivers some more than the engine will suck. thats all.

a good aspect is the 1500 stock SP.
here you are totally right this was an engine with a to small blower. a amr300 on that engine is the same like an amr500 on the same engine with 2500cc in displacement.easy calculation.
a amr300 in draw through is max good for 70hp in my mind. but with really good ignition and good matching system+ perfekt AFR.blower is at its end in rpm and look at the maps...max rpm and very low boost means worst efficency.

think about how much hp you want and than think about supercharger...the more cc the less boost is needed.
the problem is,there is no good link between amr500 and sc12 that fits on a typ1 with original cooling.

a system is just as good as its weakest link.

[Buggin_74]

its a deceiveing picture that one

the crank pulley is 139mm and the blower pulley is 98mm
still way under driven compare to stock toyota
standard crank pulley on a 4AGZE is 155mm which gives 10 psi at whatever the redline is, 7000RPM i think

i couldnt achieve 10psi with the lower reving VW engine till i put the smaller blower pulley on
the original was about 115mm and only made 6psi

the 98mm got it upto 10psi

i dont really get into all the physics of it like volumetric effeiency etc
i actually stopped playing with the blower ages ago
it hasnt been on my car for nearly 2 years now

[fast Ed]

Joel, out of curiosity, the 1500 with the AMR that you knew of, was that the 300 or 500 model blower that he was using?

With the SC12, is the hood fit issue caused by the length of the blower, and the pulley interfering? Would being able to mount it lower with the distributor out of the way make any difference? Or did your comment about the fan shroud mean that it couldn't be mounted any lower without interfering against the shroud?


thx,
Ed N.

[Buggin_74]

Hi Ed,

pretty sure it was the 300 but its only 200cc difference between the 300 and 500, both really are to small for a vw engine
marginal on a 36hp like my_medusa has built

it was both the pulley and the blower housing that were interferering due to the curviture of the decklid

heres a couple of side profile shots to give you an idea of the problem






mounting it lower would help abit but you still need to be able to run the manifold to each side

this was steves cut shroud creation

[my_medusa]

@joel
if your ratio is true your engine will not have 80-90hp how it is in my mind. then it will have about 120 when its tuned well.
in my mind your crank pulley also was 130mm but thats not the the question.

i respect your opinion. but in the case of helping a person in the net bring facts that a supercharger will be a good choice.
here is some fakts that showes what people do with a sc14..people that build engines for others.
http://www.porvwoo.fi/Project-BadAss-SC14.php
also build this one
http://www.porvwoo.fi/Project-Eaton-M45.php

the 1500 was really to big for the amr300. but the statement the amr500 has just 200cc more than the amr300...
this is 200cc x 15000rpm = 105 cf more air possible. 105cf= 70 hp. these are just theoretocally calculation in real it will be about 60 more hp.
when thinking in just 200cc more than se the eaton m45(750cc/rev) its just 250cc more than an amr500...this thing i on a bmw mini 1.6 with 170hp(and this engines was tuned to 218hp from cooper works). m45 would be the perfekt blower for a 1776cc in my mind, but its just possible to mount it with porsche style fan.
i don't want to tell that it will not work with a sc12. just that its to big and even to big for closing the bonnet
why not using the sc 12 on a 2300cc engine. stock heads,cam,..just bigger bore and stroke+1,25:1 rockers. that will be the real low down tourquer.
for a amr300 i would say too that 1200cc 36hp is enough. the VE of these heads are about 60% so the blower can do alot on these things. the 36hp engine has less output than the 660cc where the blower is from.
but on ebay last month was a setup:
amr300 on 1300cc doubple port. his engine runs 100mph. it was gone for 1000 euro!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWAX:IT

with a amr300 and a amr500 you can even close the bonnet of a oval bug. carb has to be side draft.
i am building a side draft carb for the amr300 during the next time to close my bonnet. all the time with open one is really annoying. with the arm500 a save hp output will be 100-110hp in draw through setup. i would see the save end without any kind of cooling and problems.this is no commercial for amr500 its just the easy way for up to 110hp with closed bonnet.
the more you wont the more problems will come.
but if you are hp hungry finde somthing that is a step bigger. the sc12 will work fine but is really to big for this engine and for the space in the back .
here in the shoptalk is a dragracer with about 185hp/300nm out of an M62 on a 1776cc but without cooling.
there you can see what is needed in that hp area
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 0&start=45

[fast Ed]

Thanks for the additional info guys ... more to ponder.


cheers
Ed N.

[Buggin_74]

theres all sorts of combos out there
i think the toyota aisin blowers are alot better than people give them credit for
the 1GGZE engines that SC14s came on were only 2L yet it is very common in australia for people to run them on the 3.8L buick V6 engines in holden commodores which are nearly twice the size
so who knows what the limit with an SC12 is
mick in melbourne who built the manx pictured in my thread has now got his on a very modified twin plug/ignition 1916cc engine which in a light weight manx would be a scary ride

I'd love to fit my blower to my subaru engine which in stock form alreeady makes as much as my blown 1776 but unfortunately there's just not enough room in a bug engine bay