Bearings for using a 1973 BJ drum on a 1963 LP spindle

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I am not knocking the KP beam, it is just has more parts to deal with; if you had a pan with a KP head on it, I would be pushing in that direction.

The easy answer is that the KP spud is smaller in diameter but you know that already; you can beef it up by going to combo spindles but they can get pricey. Not all after market spindles are the same either and there is debate on putting a bolt down the center of the left spindle whether it works enough to be worth the effort. King pins ride in bushing that are reamed to size; then you have the link pins and their 8 (?) shims (per side) to install correctly; a lot of stuff to deal with. The two KP beams that I have played with both had the link pin shims rusted to wafers. I have a friend who has a VW place and I watched her dealing with combo spindles the other day. She is pretty good at pressing them in but sure was getting frustrated with reaming them to fit and putting them together.

You can get race prepped BJ's but I think they are weaker than the stock ones as the slots in the ball-joint are slightly enlarged. Several years ago, there was a good post on prepping a ball-joint beam with hook and stops and other good information. What Marc (I have a great respect for Marc and his knowlege. I have never met him although I don't think he lives that far away) posted was how a set looked like installed, but the string I am thinking of went into more detail on how to do it. I now wish I had saved the link to that string. If you look in http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewtopic ... 8&t=106599 which is a list of the sticky’s; you won’t find it (I think) but you might just find something else that could help you. I think there is info on 356 stuff but I didn’t stop to read it ‘cuse I was in a hurry.

If you want to spend a good 3K then there is the IFS conversions to purchase.

I hope this helps. Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

To belabor the subject a little more; not knowing how much experience with building cars you have does make a difference in the advice given. If a person gets in over their head early in a build then the project often never gets done unless there is some hands on help from those who have had experience in this kind of thing. The more building experience, the more tools, the more welding experience; the easier it is to attempt something like a frame head change over.

As far as I know, there are three basic ways to change the frame head; if you are a good welder, you can, with good measurements, whack off the old head and support plate and weld a new one in. Seen it done and it works well, also seen it done and it didn’t work well. There are after market frame heads and support plates for sale but they are not of OEM thickness either; a junk yard frame head, in good condition could be supplemented also. Another way is to carefully remove the old frame head leaving the support piece in place (I have pictures of this method) then weld the new frame head in the old location making sure that the dimensions are kept correct just like you would have to do in the first option. The third way is to do a cut and hack on the old frame head up using the bottom support channel and bolt holes as starting point. You would then mark and cut the old frame head to drop or rise (depending on which beam you were converting to) the second pair of holes and support channel up/down to the new location to support the beam. You won’t want to destroy the access hole in the frame head, for the shift rod removal, or its cover either.

Lee

[tundrawolf]

Friends! I just got word back Chad at Appletree, and his bearings measure:

1.57 x.787
1.980 x .985

For the 1.980, that is 2 MM less than what I measured. SO I measured again, and it turns out there is a lip before the bearings seat, and the ACTUAL dimension is 1.980.

Which means these bearings are exactly what I need! I can use my BJ drums with my LP front end!

Now, does anyone know if the brake parts will swap over??

[Marc]

`58-`64 Bug front shoes are similar to `65-up, the only difference is that the adjuster end of the late shoe frames is angled to mate with the wide-slot/angled `65-up adjuster bolt. The width of the slot in the wheel cylinder pistons was also increased in `65 to lessen the incidence of shoes hanging up at the W/C end, but the W/Cs are otherwise identical.
What I can't say for sure from memory is whether or not the KP backing plates will clear the BJ drums - it may be necessary to turn off at least some of the lip on the BJ drum to keep it from interfering with the KP backing plate (while not likely to be critical, that's gotta negatively impact the integrity of the drum somewhat).

I still think this is a stupid solution for a problem that only exists in your imagination. Sell off the `63 beam to someone who needs it and make the relatively minor modifications necessary to make your BJ front end survive. Your Beetle doesn't have a heavy cast-iron lump of an engine pounding its mass upon the front end like the S-10 did...Generous Motors didn't spend a dime more than they absolutely had to on that design, either, so it's not a valid basis for comparison.

Did you get an answer yet as to what grease seal you would need to run BJ drums on KP spindles?
Do you appreciate the amount of work (and specialty, expensive, reaming tools) required to properly refurbish a KP front end?
Have you even grasped how much work will be involved to graft a KP framehead to your `73 chassis? I haven't seen an intelligent response from you yet acknowledging the issue of the incompatible beam-tube spacing...unless you can convince me that you're NOT in way over your head, I'll be washing my hands of you as of now.

[tundrawolf]

I understand the comparison of the S10 that spent 10 years driving in the city with nary a problem, then spent 1 year in the desert and ate 3 sets of balljoints. The desert is a harsh environment, and as a mechanic/jack of all trades I see what dust and shock do to ball joints of every kind. I watched the dust seals fail in a brand new set of balljoints in my S10 truck in less than a month. VW May have made a better front end, but what about their dust seals?

New dust seals are available, but do I really want to be putting on a set of 5+ every month to keep the fine dust out of the joint? My VW sitting sees more dust than a city only vehicle sees in a month. Sandstorms, rough and rocky terrain eat things like this alive. Not to mention I am uncomfortable with any ball joint that I cannot put grease into. A friend who lives with me has an 02 Ford Explorer 4x4 that is falling apart because of the desert roads. I feel that saying because there isn't an engine punishing the joints that the BJ front end of a Beetle will last is disingenuous.

VW didn't spend a dime more than necessary designing their front ends either, in their economy cars.

I am more than capable of fitting the BJ front end with the stops, I was taught under William Galvery to weld, and I do have fabrication skills. I need to have a problem free front end for daily driving under extremely abusive conditions. Do you honestly believe even with bump stops that the BJ front end can survive this? Most of the beetles I see are LP or Supers here in the high desert-the ones that are driven a lot. Why is this? Think about it.

I didn't get an answer about the dust seals because I didn't ask the question-if a BJ disc can fit on a LP spindle with a bearing swap, why not the dust seals as well?

I appreciate the fact that even after I purchase all of the parts it is going to take me well over a month to get everything done, including front and rear suspension, oil and cooling system modifications, complete engine rebuild, electrical system modifications, communications system additions, inverter additions, and cargo carrying additions. Right now I have a 2002 V Star 1100 motorcycle that I get around on and that is it. Winter is coming and I need to get this bug together as fast as I can, but I do not wish to have an inferior vehicle that will give me problems and I will have to be working on. I need it bullet proof when I get it running, period.

As far as the reaming tools go, that is why there are machine shops. If I had the $ for these tools I would do it myself, but that will be outsourced to one of the many shops in the high desert.

As far as the intelligent responses go, that is because this thread is *not* focusing on mounting it, but rather getting the BJ drums to fit on the LP spindles. I haven't even looked at what it will take firsthand. I have seen pictures and read descriptions, but when it comes down to it it will not be that hard as I am a competent welder and fabricator, and have finished far more difficult and involved projects in the past. It may sound like I am bragging but you have such a low opinion, what else can I say about it? Go ahead and wash your hands, but nobody told you to get them dirty in the first place. If you take it upon yourself to answer every post you will no doubt run into aggravating circumstances and I do appreciate the advice and knowledge you have offered so far.

I took a look at the seals: The outer seals are dust caps, no problem there. The inner seal is a rubber ring. The ID of the ring is 40MM, and the OD of the portion of the spindle where it slips around on the LP is also 40MM, exactly the same. There is only one possible predicament, and that is the spacing of the brake pistol assembly mounting plate bolts, which are a lot closer together than on the BJ front end.

I looked at the depth of the innermost spindle, and the LP front end has a lot more length than the BJ unit, which lends me to believe that the addition of some spacers to bring the seal out more will clear the bolts, if it is even a problem when I fit the bearings onto the spindle and get everything together, which I doubt it will be. The addition of grade 8 recessed hex head bolts would fix the clearance issue, if it actually becomes an issue. It looks like I am clear, failing an issue with the brake components themselves. I also checked the dust cover plate and it fits over the inner lip of the drum just fine.

[Marc]

Thanks for the detailed reply - it does sound as though you know how big a project this will be, so since your mind is made up I'll stop trying to talk you out of it, even though I still think it's completely unnecessary to go to such an extreme amount of effort for questionable gain...as I said above, stock KP front ends really are not all that tough. SuperBeetle front suspension is hardly adequate for street use, far too frail IMO for off-road - so if there's someone managing to keep one of those together on your route, you might want to get some driving tips from him

Couple comments, though.
Zerk fittings can be installed in VW balljoints, no big deal (OEM ones were already drilled & tapped, since the holes also accept pointers used when checking control arm straightness with a factory tool).
Dust seal failure is not usually an issue provided the balljoints are not overtravelled, at least on the VW. Can't speak to the issue on your S-10, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was a factor.

...if a BJ disc can fit on a LP spindle with a bearing swap, why not the dust seals as well?..

That's the kind of faulty logic that got me concerned in the first place.
If all leaves are green and all trees are green, that doesn't mean all trees are leaves.

The inner bearing and the grease seal do not share the same I.D. You'll need a seal that has the correct O.D. to fit in the BJ drum, with the right I.D. for the spacer on the KP spindle. Might need to machine some special spacers to allow using a stock BJ seal. Note that the I.D. of the BJ seal was increased slightly in mid`68, so there are two possible "stock" parts you could use (actually five if you count disk & drum variants and Rabbit rear seals).

Here's a listing of some relevant P/Ns; I haven't had time yet to research all of the dimensions, but will edit this post to show them when I do - will probably make a "sticky" out of it for future reference.

KP inner wheel bearing (ball) 111 405 625A
 "     "       "         "   (roller) 111 405 627
 "  outer    "         "     (ball) 111 405 645A
 "     "       "         "   (roller) 111 405 647
Note that while it's permissible to run ball bearings on one side and roller on the other, you must never mix types on the same spindle - the side-thrust       generated by the tapered roller bearing will wear out the ball bearing prematurely.
Spacer (on BJ spindles, the seal rides on an integral machined step; on KP spindles, it's a replaceable part) 111 405 631B
                   Dimensions (approximate) O.D. 1.575", I.D. .985", thickness .585"
Lockplate 111 405 681
Lock nut (LH) 111 405 671
   "     "  (RH) 111 405 672
Thrust washer 111 405 661
Aftermarket locknut w/integral thrust washer (pr) Cip1.com P/N ACC-C10-4210. Designed for use with KP drum/dustcap, may need clearancing to fit inside         BJ drum/dustcap.
Kingpin rebuild kit 111 498 021/2
Linkpin rebuild kit 111 498 051/2
Kingpin selective-fit thrust washers have been obsolete for years and the kits do not contain new ones. Unless you can find a source of NOS parts, the       spindles and/or link carriers will have to be machined to get proper .002" endplay (wear limit is .006", up to .004" acceptable on new installation) with       whatever shims you can come up with ("solid" rocker-shaft shims will fit)
Grease seal 111 405 641A

BJ drums & discs have the same bearing & seal bores (Type I as well as Type III)
BJ inner bearing (through 3/68) 311 405 625 I.D. 26.99-27.0mm (1.0626-1.063"), O.D. 50.29-50.32mm (1.9799-1.981")
 "     "       "      (3/68-up) 311 405 625B/C/D/etc. I.D. 29.0-29.01mm (1.417-1.142") "    "        "             "         "
 "  outer    "      (all) 311 405 645 I.D. 17.46-17.48mm (.6874-.6882"), O.D. 39.88-39.9mm (1.5701-1.5709")
Thrust washer 311 405 661
Seal (early, drum) 131 405 641A
  "    (  "     disc) 311 405 641A
  "    (late, drum) 111 405 641B/C 40mm I.D.
  "    (  "    disc) 311 405 641B          "     "
  "    Dasher/Rabbit rear 321 501 641 (same size as 311 405 641B but with no lip; usually less expensive, too)
All five seals have the same O.D., the only difference is in the lip design. Disc seals have a narrow flat lip that gives more clearance to the backing plate than the thick domed lip found on drum seals - you can always use disc seals on drums, but the reverse is usually not true.

KP spindle dimensions (unconfirmed) inner bearing journal 25mm, outer bearing journal 20mm.

BJ spindle dimensions:
Early inner bearing journal 26.97-26.98mm (1.0618-1.0622")
Late    "        "         "    28.98-29.00mm (1.1409-1.1417")
Outer bearing journal 17.45-17.46mm (.687-.6874")

BJ drum/disc inner bearing bore 50.25-50.28mm (1.9783-1.9795")
 "     "      "   outer    "         "   39.84-39.87mm (1.5685-1.5697")

EMPI "conversion" inner bearing P/N 17-2795-0  I.D. .9845", O.D. 1.977"
     "        "         outer     "       "   17-2796-0   "    .7875",   "   1.570"

Since I've never tried using the conversion bearings I can't confirm this, but one person has mentioned that they widen the track width by over an inch - if that's true, drums would be jacked halfway off the shoes...could be why the only mention made of the use of these bearings is to fit disc-brake rotors to a kingpin front end (the brackets used to mount the calipers to the backingplate bolt holes could be built to move them out as well).

[BAJA-IT]

If you put hook stops on the ball joint beam the ball joints will last a long time. I run four to five desert races on my class 9 car before I change the ball joints, and they are still tight, and the boots are still good. I have a box of them that we use on my two sons cars if and when they need them. One is a street car, the other is a baja that sees lots of dirt. We have not put stops on the baja yet and he has gone over a year without needing to replace a ball joint. Plus he wants to put a long travel front end on it.
I say stick with the ball joint front end unless you are planning to go to a long travel front end in the future.

[1966bajabug]

the other is a baja that sees lots of dirt.

He's telling the truth!!

[mrbajadude]

I have a different problem! How do I put king/link drum(new with studs) on a '68 ball joint beam???? HELP me please. John

[Marc]

Never heard of anyone doing that...I doubt that there are any bearings available which could fit in the space available between the BJ spindle journals' O.D.s and the KP drum's I.D.s...and then there'd be the question of what seal could work.
Could be that it's feasible if you have the BJ spindles turned down on a lathe to the KP diameter. I suppose if it was done by a competent machinist who retained a smooth fillet radius it might not lose too much strength...there are other considerations besides the journal diameter, though - the drum would need to end up in the same lateral location as a BJ drum in order to maintain alignment with the shoes, and I'm not sure that the BJ spindle is long enough to allow that.

BTW, on a `68 there are "early" spindles (same as `66/`67) and "late" (same as `69-up) depending upon the production date. The diameter of the inner bearing & seal and the tierod end stud were all enlarged midyear. Even the early spindles with the smaller bearing/seal diameter don't accept KP drums, though.

[mrbajadude]

I've talked to a few that have heard of it. And I used the early balljoint 5 lug drums on later spindles using the early bearings. I do have new K/L drums with new studs Is why I'm trying to use them.

[Marc]

I've talked to a few that have heard of it...I do have new K/L drums with new studs Is why I'm trying to use them.

And how did they say it was done?

...I used the early balljoint 5 lug drums on later spindles using the early bearings...

You have NOT fit early BJ bearings over late spindles, I assume that's either a typo or you just thought they were early inners. It is possible to put the larger late bearings and seals over the smaller early BJ spindles, but they will self-destruct rapidly (and take out the outer bearings and the spindles in the process if not caught in time).