Wilwood Dynalite Brake Upgrade

[kangaboy]

You guys are discussing this with racing in mind, i assume...but are the front Wilwood Dynalite calipers too much for street driving? I have been working on my turbo'd 1776 the last few months, and i would like to put some good stopping power up front. But in reading your initial post, you mentioned with too much stopping power, sliding will be promoted.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

With a short wheel base rail with almost no weight on the front end it could be very possible.

Lee

[Piledriver]

The primary issue is front to rear balance.

It's also difficult to use "hand of god" brakes if you don't have the matching "hand of god" sticky tire to match.

Wilwood makes calipers with piston sizes down to 1.25" at least, maybe smaller in some models.
The Dynalites weigh (with pads) about 6 lb each less than the stock iron calipers, so its almost worth doing just for the unsprung weight reduction, particularly vital on a light vehicle.

Get the "superlight internal" (internal passages, rather than an outside side-to-side line) if possible, little more $$$ and better much stiffer calipers.

[ToRy 70]

I have a link pin CB drop spindle brake kit with ghia type calipers. Their standard kit. I notice vdubengineering and many other places with adapters don't offer anything for the dropped disc spindle. They support the dropped drum spindle where the adapter bolts in place of the backing plate as shown above. I want to make a basic bracket that bolts to the disc caliper area on the cb dropped spindle to go from the standard small ATE ghia caliper bolt pattern and adapt to the Wilwood spacing. Nobody offers this adapter so I assume there is a technical reason. I haven't measured it to see what the hold ups would be. Any ideas, has anybody done this?

Pile touched upon this in his response but I didn't see if anyone has tried this yet. I've got BJ drop disc spindles and am also interested in adopting some Wilwood units. I pulled off my right front wheel this week and found a leaky Varga (or Chinese) caliper. I have flat-faced CMS wheels and I really hate grinding the casting nubs on the caliper for clearance, I've already done it a few times and it's still barely enough. The Wilwood calipers will clear nicely.

There might be an interference problem with the steering knuckle, the bolt locations are really close to it on the dropped spindle examples. Instead of centering the hole patterns for such a bracket, I might need to make an offset arrangement.

[Piledriver]

The sort of technical reason is that it can line up TOO well, and the bolts want to be in the same plane and on the superlites, almost same place, but wrong bolt spacing.
Overlapping/offset bolt holes are the suck if making an adapter, its a cut off and weld or do something else situation.

OTOH the Superlites have a 3.5" bolt spacing and would probably bolt on to an early 911 in place of "M' calipers for example, and possibly just need a shim for rotor spacing. (very common offset/bolt spacing on factory calipers)

There's no "good" way to adapt short of grinding/welding for some combinations, as there's no room for an adapter...at least with the steel hats, 3" offset over 1" spacers... I can bolt the superlites on using one bolt in the late T3 factory caliper mounts and they are perfect offset and everything... For THAT rotor/hat setup... Just rotated lower than looks right.

The cheaper (but IMHO still great with the bridge bolt mod) Forged Dynalites have a wide bolt spacing and can be made to work easier in this app, as they sort of go around the factory mount, plus line up with the surface behind the spindle face surface... Making a bolt-on ~possible using $8/pair off the shelf adapters via drilling/tapping the spindles (may be existing holes usable)
I sniped a pair of dynalites almost NIB for $99 shipped. Someone put them on, may have driven a bit, and decided on a different bore or rotor size, or Superlites (conjecture) they LOOK brand new in and out, and came in the original boxes)

I'm working up something with the $25 stamped steel hats and $35 Wilwood rotors (dynalites and superlites, slight different offset and mounts totally different) BUT the hats go OVER 1" spacers, as I'm running later Porsche high offset/backspace rims, so it works out for ME.

My track is ~stock, wheel sits in the right place. Front ET52.5 16x6" 7 slots. (87+ 944T)
(rear will be 1986 944 Turbo rear suspension and brakes RSN, still trying to confirm the late 944 shocks are right for the swap before ordering, I suspect that's the case, anyway)

With the 1" spacers I ~Et20ish, but the cheap hat offset setup NEEDS the 1" spacers.
They ONLY make 3" stamped steel hats (for IMCA racing spec) anything else is just very pricey machined ones.

The bad news for most is I have a T3 to base this on... I don't have a T1 Standard Bug anymore to play with, and my sons 71 Super doesn't count., A t3 wheel offset is like a 914 or late Super Beetle... ET 35-42 is bog std.

T1 is ET ~20ish. sometimes less (EMPI 8 pokes are about ET15, which is why they rub fenders even with pretty skinny tires)

...but the spare T3 early spindles I have (still "ball joint") take the Ghia etc rotors/ calipers etc, so should be very close/same offset vs. std T1 dimensions, and as the rotor offset is quite different to what i have been toying with
there may be room.

The Dynalites line up perfect on the available cheap steel plate mounts bolted to the machined surface the spindle lives on.

The Superlites essentially need holes just outside the factory spindle mount... but same offset, so something like welding on a couple grade 8 nuts sets it in place. (sounds simple, right?) Same plane as the factory caliper mount, bolts are a touch further in to stock mount holes using 11.75 rotors.

For a few pics, see viewtopic.php?p=1233366#p1233366

I DiD eyeball cutting most of the disc off a old stock Ghia rotor and machining the lip to mount Wilwood 7x8 bolt pattern rotors.
Looks like a definite maybe.

Most of the "machining" could be done with a plasma cutter or grinder and a std brake lathe...
I think.

My main concern is the thin lip between the hat and disc is where the 8x7" bolts want to live.

You can GET ~330mm rotors in 8x7, but those fill 18" wheels, and would probably be way too much grab even with low friction racing pads (for dirt) and sticky tires on front of a light front end (~Ariel Atom maybe)

I'll try it with stock "Ghia" rotors the coming weekend given time, have some plans, but if all the parts don't show up the rear suspension and BBK upgrade will wait and I'll have time to play some with factory rotors.

If anybody in Dallas area want to donate a T1 spindle to the cause, PM me.
(can have some spun bearing damage to spindle as long as its reasonably straight so the bearings don't flop around)

I'm looking at you, Helo

[ToRy 70]

I think the Dynalites suit my flat-faced wheels, simply because of the total "hat" height of the stock rotor (although mine are not stock (link), they share most of the same dimensions). Can you explain this bridge bolt mod in a little more detail?

I've got some measuring to do (bolt circle radius, face offset, etc.), but my basic idea to support a 5.25" spacing on a bracket is like this. You can see how the knuckle prevents an easy centered arrangement on dropped disc spindles. If this won't work, I may have to do some custom drilling or welding on the spindles to fit it on the other side.

disc brackets.PNG

[Piledriver]

Putting `em on front of spindle is probably an option.
Have to test for trailing arm clearance at full lock, but probably NBD.

if the spindle face/spindle<>rotor spacing is as stock, the brackets FJ Camper used are an off the shelf solution provided a few holes drilled and tapped...
...as would be any off the shelf Dynalite weld on bracket from Wilwood, Speedway and a thousand other sources. (those start at around $8 a pair. Seriously.)

You can drill//bolt on weld-on brackets, just make sure they are the 3/8" flavor or 1/4" and nutserts. 1/4 threaded isn't quite enough without a backing nut, preferably welded on.

Press (then tacked) in threaded inserts are generally much higher grade steel than your average even grade 8.8 or 10.9 nut, and replaceable. Can also be had in metric.

[ToRy 70]

The backsides of my rotors are unfortunately a flat plane, with no clearance around the hub like stock rotors. I doubt I'd be able to get any kind of meaningful hardware on the face, unless it's some big countersunk stuff.

I'd better get off the boards and under the fender to take some measurements!

P.S. It looks like the bridge-bolt mod you refer to means to replace the non-structural cotter pin with something that helps with the clamp rigidity on the open "outside" of the caliper. I imagine the brake pad pin-holes are also reamed out to accommodate this.

Here's a list of all the current Wilwood calipers that support a stock (0.380") rotor thickness. The billet Dynalite at the top has the bridge-bolt and internal crossovers. The one at the bottom is a radial mount(!) that may support some creative bracketry. Expensive though. By the way, how lucky are we that they post all of these dimensions? What a great resource.

[Dan Dryden]

Loving those hubs and rotors!
Are they aluminium hubs?
Where can I get a pair for a late ball joint spindle?

[Piledriver]

Forged billet aluminum hubs can be has for <<$300 a pair that take Wilwood rotors or adapters to same
(Made by Wilwood).

Unfortunately haven't found one that fits BJ spindles, but I was considering making old school style drop spindles using some 7/16" plate and CrMo stubs, might as well use a cheap common CrMo Chevy or Ford stub at that point that you CAN get reasonably priced hubs for, and with much larger bearings.

[ToRy 70]

Loving those hubs and rotors!
Are they aluminium hubs?
Where can I get a pair for a late ball joint spindle?

The hubs are 7075 aluminum, rotors are HRS. Unfortunately, they were a one-off project just for me! Too expensive to build again unless I were to contract a CNC lathe shop and order huge quantities. My project is in a link in one of the above posts. I can forward you some drawings if you want to emulate these ones.

Airkewld has some BJ assemblies but they're only 5-bolt patterns. I didn't want to change my wheels away from 4x130. http://www.airkewld.com/BAD-Series-Ball ... p/4800.htm

I have about 0.225" of clearance from the face of the rotor to the face of the spindle. I think using 3/16" steel stock (0.1875") would work to base a bracket off of, but there's no telling if that would be rigid enough. I think I'll have to bolt on the backside of the spindle somehow like the stock caliper.

[Dan Dryden]

Loving those hubs and rotors!
Are they aluminium hubs?
Where can I get a pair for a late ball joint spindle?

The hubs are 7075 aluminum, rotors are HRS. Unfortunately, they were a one-off project just for me! Too expensive to build again unless I were to contract a CNC lathe shop and order huge quantities. My project is in a link in one of the above posts. I can forward you some drawings if you want to emulate these ones.

Airkewld has some BJ assemblies but they're only 5-bolt patterns. I didn't want to change my wheels away from 4x130. http://www.airkewld.com/BAD-Series-Ball ... p/4800.htm

I have about 0.225" of clearance from the face of the rotor to the face of the spindle. I think using 3/16" steel stock (0.1875") would work to base a bracket off of, but there's no telling if that would be rigid enough. I think I'll have to bolt on the backside of the spindle somehow like the stock caliper.

I had a feeling they may have been one-offs.
A shame nobody wants to produce some and sell them into the aftermarket.
There are a huge number of suppliers offering aluminium hubs for the classic Ford market in the UK.... I suppose it's because of their motorsport heritage. The VW Beetle doesn't have as much of a motorsports pedigree.

[PhillipM]

There's just not enough call for them, I couldn't get anyone interested in going in with me on a few sets of my fronts, so I ended up making a pair for me and that was it:



The cost of materials and labour over here isn't good compared to the states either, and most people don't have room for tools in a garage to work on their cars, so the market is tiny for serious stuff (unless it's actual race parts, in which case we're some of the best in the world for it, if your budget stretches... )

[Piledriver]

... if your budget stretches... )

If you have an racing budget and elastic wallet?

[ToRy 70]

Those are some bitchin' hubs! Nice work.