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Re: 1971 Beetle master cylinder

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
by Oliver Closeoffe
Got it!!. The front wheel cyls were the problem. I unbolted them from the backing plate, let them hang by the hose, them turned the front end to get them to hang as low as possible. I held them level and cracked the bleeder, the air came bubbling out. Thank you guys for your input.

Re: 1971 Beetle master cylinder

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:05 pm
by Ol'fogasaurus
Oliver Closeoffe wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm Got it!!. The front wheel cyls were the problem. I unbolted them from the backing plate, let them hang by the hose, them turned the front end to get them to hang as low as possible. I held them level and cracked the bleeder, the air came bubbling out. Thank you guys for your input.
Good job Oliver! I suspected it might be the front brakes; your fix was spot on.

Lee

Re: 1971 Beetle master cylinder

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 am
by Marc
SCOTTRODS wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:53 pm 58-67 Beetles had the vertical mount wheel cylinders on the fronts...
Ol'fogasaurus wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 am As far as the residual pressure valves I wonder.... Their use is to stop bleed back in the system to keep the line pressure which keeps the shoes from backing off and giving soft or uneven brake application. They were more discs than drum originally but do work well in both applications...

The basic layout of "standard" Beetle front brakes was unchanged through the end of production, perhaps you're thinking of Super Beetle fronts (which were actually derived from Type III rears). The vertical orientation will only cause air to remain entrapped if the bleeders aren't opened rapidly and far enough to create a healthy rush of fluid to come out, bringing the air bubble along. It should not be necessary to move anything around in order to accomplish bleeding successfully unless your technique is bad. "Gravity" bleeding is inappropriate on a VW IMO.

Starting in `65 the adjuster screw slots were widened and angled, and the shoe frame ends have a corresponding angle. A common mistake is to orient the adjusters wrong, which can cause the shoes to catch and develop a notch where they make contact. Odd things result, you can get a "false" adjustment and operation may be erratic.

The residual pressure check valves used on drum-brake master cylinders will hold too high of a line pressure for discs, resulting in drag/heat buildup and rapid pad wear. Their purpose was to hold a light pressure, not enough to overcome the return springs, to keep the lips of the wheel cylinder seals in firm contact with the cylinder bores to reduce seepage. On disc brakes there are no return springs to offer resistance so residual pressure valves are not desired.

There were several variations in the original early dual-circuit master cylinders; cars with disc front brakes took a different one than did drum/drum cars. But the ONLY M/C that has been available for decades is the 113 611 015BD "universal replacement" which services all dual-circuit Type I applications (other than Super Beetle).
It uses no residual pressure valves, just has tiny drillings at the outlet ports which are there to limit the backflow rate when the pedal is suddenly released so air won't be drawn in at the W/C seals in drum brake applications.
Those restriction drillings also limit the flow rate out of the M/C when bleeding but normally not by enough to cause any problem when foot-bleeding.

The "Formula Vee" package was dealer-installed and only cosmetic, no changes were made mechanically. Actually 1970 was the last year it was officially authorized, replaced by the similar "Super Vee" package in 1971. Again, no mechanical differences - just things like rims, decals & badges, steering wheel/shiftknob/etc.
But that didn't stop a dealer from using up any leftover Formula Vee kits on newer cars.
http://www.sebeetles.com/f_vee/
http://www.sebeetles.com/s_vee/

Re: 1971 Beetle master cylinder

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:24 pm
by Ol'fogasaurus
Mark, the 2#s residual pressure valve figure I got off the web which somewhat goes with your low/no pressure needed. I know that we have talked about this subject before; I agree that there are no springs on disc brakes but there is the potential of bleed back (I think someone said that when the pedal is backed off then there is/can be a vacuum pulling fluid back... never had heard this before but then when I was learning about brakes discs were a rarity here in the states) due to several thing and I am not sure of all of them.

Since I run turning brakes and use only discs in the rear and add to that the turning brake cylinders are mounted high above the braking system in the rear (on top of the tunnel) the brake fluid loss of pressure isn't usually a problem but on lowered rigs but (and this is a question) in circumstances where the pan and pedal assy are below the disc brake's wheel cylinders is the potential of bleed back there hence the need for the residual pressure valve?

Lee

Correction. Replaced "master cylinder" with "wheel cylinders".