i need help on my baja motor

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I am embarrassed over this string but there might be some useful information for you on you BJ beam; http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... g+spindles

Lee

[Marc]

I have to wonder why you didn't post the stamped-in engine ID number at the outset - we've wasted a good bit of time because you didn't. And this post:

....i do have the as41 right by the fireing order its in a circular motion

now appears to be totally meaningless.

Your engine case is an early 1963...that was a 1200cc motor originally, tiny oil passages and no cam bearings (the cam rides directly in the bore in the case - good for ~250K miles befpre the wear's too great to maintain oil pressure at hot-idle). It's hard to say what its present configuration is, since a 1200 case can be machined out to accept larger cylinders, a later longer-stroke crank may have been fitted along the way...and it is possible to machine one for insert cam bearings, too - but nothing can be done about the oil passages, so regardless it's a lousy choice for any kind of performance build. I can't discern from those Craigslist pictures if it still has 1200 heads - on 13/15/1600 heads the intake manifold swoops in at a slight angle, on 1200 heads it comes straight down vertically into the head. But like the case, heads can be opened up for larger cylinders...and even without machinework a 1200 with stock stroke can be bumped up to 1385cc with a set of aftermarket "big-bore" pistons/cylinders. There are scads of possible combinations, without tearing into it nobody can say for sure what you've got there.
On the LH side of the carburetor there should be identification cast in - a `63 used a 28PICT or 28PICT-1 carb, I suspect you have an H30/31PICT. There are two numbers stamped into the body of the distributor (they could be out of sight, you may need a mirror to view them). The 9-digit one (may have a letter suffix) is the VW P/N but I'd rather know the 10-digit Bosch number.
The aircleaner looks like early `60s, but the oil filler/road-draft tube is `68-`72...this motor's definitely no "virgin", whoever put it together probably had quite a pile of parts to work with.
It has a 12 volt generator, and hopefully the flywheel is also 12V (it's a rather long story about what it takes to fit one to a `63 crankshaft, no point in going into that just yet - but if you pull the engine, count the teeth on the flywheel...there'll be 109 or 130). The fan housing could be `63, it's definitely pre`70.
The dunebuggy-dual or "dual cannon" exhaust system makes a lot of noise but doesn't help performance like a proper 4-into-1 system can; right now I'd say that's the least of your concerns, though - it'll do until you have nothing more important upon which to spend your money.

Not much of a market for window glass (other than windshields). If the rear windows are the optional pop-out type, someone may want them (and ALL of the hardware necessary to fit them to a fixed-window car). Is it your intention to use this off-road only, so you won't be needing any windows?

[trbugman]

I'd have to see the study results before I'd believe that, it doesn't pass the common-sense test. Now, on most V8s if you remove the thermostat you should install a restrictor with a hole about that size to raise the coolant pressure in the engine (that reduces cavitation which might reduce waterpump efficiency and encourage corrosion, and can actually make the engine run cooler than leaving the passage wide open) but those considerations don't apply to the ACVW - dumping cooling air would accomplish nothing positive in my estimation. Non-freshair, industrial, and gas-heater Things all use fan shrouds with no fresh air outlets and the factory doesn't poke holes in them

The analogy of the V8 cooling system cavitation is exactly what Piledriver was talking about. If you plug the outlets the ducting inside the fan shroud will be stalled in places where there should be flow.

Doing a quick search I found this thread:

It's funny how every time this topic comes up its always the half regurgitated incorrect internet parroting info that comes out.

The 181 Thing shrouds with no heater outlets have different deflector lay out inside to compensate for the lack of heater outlets.

When Jake did the testing on the type 1 doghouse shroud with all his fancy gear what the big deal was when there's no heaterboxes and hoses connected that the outlets plugged off completely caused slight turbulence inside the shroud which caused the 2 sides to run at different temps.

Not enough that you notice with normal driving and would be undetecable without a head temp on each plug but it would have a long term impact on the engines life span.
Most people don't drive there VWs enough anymore for that matter though.

Having the appropriate sized hole in the plug created the same back pressure that stock heaterboxes provide.

[Marc]

Thanks, but I've seen that thread - and I remain unconvinced. I understand the concept of balancing the flow from side to side, and that's always going to be a compromise that's inconsistent between varying fan speeds. But at any speed, the cooling system relies upon a pressure differential across the heads and cylinders, and it simply defies the laws of physics that reducing the pressure on the high side will increase the efficiency. There's no valid comparison with the thermostat restrictor on a waterpumper, either IMO - the analogous situation would be if restriction were added to the hot air exhausted from below the engine, not bleeding off cool air on the supply side.
But hey, all I know is what the Navy taught me in Heat Transfer & Fluid Flow classes in nuclear power school....

But, right or wrong, as it applies in this case to what appears to be a 40HP in an open engine compartment that's missing much of its sheetmetal, I doubt that the difference would be significant.

[Piledriver]

I'd have to see the study results before I'd believe that, it doesn't pass the common-sense test. Now, on most V8s if you remove the thermostat you should install a restrictor with a hole about that size to raise the coolant pressure in the engine (that reduces cavitation which might reduce waterpump efficiency and encourage corrosion, and can actually make the engine run cooler than leaving the passage wide open) but those considerations don't apply to the ACVW - dumping cooling air would accomplish nothing positive in my estimation. Non-freshair, industrial, and gas-heater Things all use fan shrouds with no fresh air outlets and the factory doesn't poke holes in them

Only reporting results reported by Jake Raby back when he was testing T1 shrouds while developing the T1 DTM.
I'll see if I can find the original posts on his old forum... From distant memory, got better cylinder to cylinder temp uniformity with restricted flow vs open or closed, but that may only apply to Doghouse setups, which does not appear to be the case here.

The "connect the hoses if you have heater boxes" part is not being argued.

[FJCamper]

Above: From The Bad Old Days, air flow pattern in a 36HP shroud


Gentlemen,

We all owe Jake Raby a lot for his fan housing research. One of the most well-know stories about Prof. Porsche, early on while with the Mercedes racing team, told a group of arguing engineers the answer to a problem on the car they were testing.

"How do you know this?" They challenged him.

"I looked," said Porsche.

On the subject of needing fresh-air fan holes to increase or maintain the efficency of the cooling, I showed our in-house NASA engineer (P.R. The Rocket Scientist) the problem. He is a retired specialist in the flow and movement of liquids, steam, air, etc. in closed systems. He didn't even have to slow down his computer Solitaire game to give an answer.

"If the fan housing needs holes to reduce turbulance at the bottom, you've got too much fan."

No argument of the merits of redesigning the heads, new air vane guides, nada.

FJC

[badbaja209]

MARC I TOLD YOU PEOPLE KEPT TELLIN ME THOSE WERE THE WRONG NUMBERS TOO LOOK AT I WAS TOLD TO GET THE NUMBERS OFF THE SIDE OFF THE OIL FILLER/GENERATOR STAND AND SO I DID AND ALL I GOT WAS NOPE THOSE ARE WRONG NUMBERS GET LOWER MAYBE ON THE SIDE OF YOUR OILPAN I LOOKED AT MY OIL PAN AND BOOM I SEE 113.101.102.B5 I NEVER MEANT TOO WEASTE ANY TIME I JUST DONT KNOW EXACTLY HOW TOO FIND THE RIGHT CALL NUMBERS............THE AIRCLEANER IS ALSO STAMPED 113.101.102 B5 I JUST DONT KNOW ANYMORE IF YOU GUYS WANT I CAN QUIT REPOSTIN AND LEAVE YOU ALONE LIKE I SAID I WASNT TRYNNA WASTE ANYONES TIME SO IF I SEE A REPOST ILL REPLY IF NO REPOST ILL LEAVE YOU GUYS ALONE

[Ol'fogasaurus]

badbaja209, relax, turn off the caps; you are not going through anything that most of us already have gone through ourselves.

Unless you buy from the original owner you most likely not going to know what any of the POs have done to your car. Its kind of like a Sherlock Holmes vs. Professor Moriarty novel where Sherlock is trying to solve the problem from all of the clues along with some of then non-clues just a lot of foreknowledge they have come by from past dealing with cars, especially ACVWs.

Marc, Piledriver and many of the others here have a lot of knowledge and are willing to share it. You don't want to chase them off from helping you... please be patient with us as we work through this with you.

Lee

[Piledriver]

Pictures may help... 800x600 jpeg 125kb max, or a link to photobucket etc.

[Marc]

badbaja209 did put some up (I missed them until he prodded me) hosted at Craigslist: https://post.craigslist.org/manage/4617639917/75xvn


...after viewing, you may understand why I'm not overly concerned about the finer points of fanshroud airflow in this instance - but IMO if the problem is "too much fan" one should slow it down by altering pulley ratio or replace it with an earlier version with fewer blades, rather than start poking holes in things
Long time ago, I whacked up a doghouse shroud by removing the freshair outlets and the "hips" to improve carb clearance - in a racecar with full-flow cooler I had no use for the doghouse either so it too was skinned off - the object was to have a shroud with the correct internal vanes to properly distribute the airflow (I even installed t'stat flaps, brazed in the full-open position, based upon Gene Berg's research which indicated they also help in pointing the air properly at the heads). I used that same Frankenstein shroud for over 10 years, during which time I progressed from wet-sump to dry-sump and from gasoline to methanol, using progressively smaller crank pulleys and lower-output fans in order to get the engine temperature UP...not once did it occur to me to break out the hole saw

...THE AIRCLEANER IS ALSO STAMPED 113.101.102 B5...

I really need to see a photo of that ...an aircleaner with (A) a "stamped" number of any kind and (B) a number which denotes an engine case component ("101"). It must compliment the AS41 1963 case with the imaginary factory exchange logo....

[Piledriver]

The holesaw is just for the press-in freeze plugs if installed in the heater air outlets, not proposing taking them to the shroud itself.
(Although IIRC that WAS a partial fix for one of the 911 shrouds Jake was also testing at the time )

[helowrench]

Damn hamsters ate a nice detailed, long winded post.

Anyway.

Badbaja, what is your goal with this Baja?
Long term daily driver?
Weekend Baja only?

[Marc]

The holesaw is just for the press-in freeze plugs if installed in the heater air outlets, not proposing taking them to the shroud itself.
(Although IIRC that WAS a partial fix for one of the 911 shrouds Jake was also testing at the time )

[petew]

...On the subject of needing fresh-air fan holes to increase or maintain the efficency of the cooling, I showed our in-house NASA engineer (P.R. The Rocket Scientist) the problem. He is a retired specialist in the flow and movement of liquids, steam, air, etc. in closed systems. He didn't even have to slow down his computer Solitaire game to give an answer.

"If the fan housing needs holes to reduce turbulance at the bottom, you've got too much fan."

No argument of the merits of redesigning the heads, new air vane guides, nada.

FJC

How did the RPM of the fan relate to this issue? Is part of the issue that on high revving racing the engines, the fan is spinning above it's intended operating speed?

[FJCamper]

Hi PeteW,

PR the Rocket Scientist meant if you were not going to redesign the hardware, you drop fan RPM to smooth out airflow.

The higher velocity air is striking the restrictive heads and cylinders and buffeting. The buffeting causes even more air resistance. PR calls that a boundry layer.

So, you punch holes in the fan housing to reduce that pressure, or you slow fan RPM to reduce that pressure.

I don't know why Jake Raby reinvented the wheel with his DTM fan housing, when Porsche had already won that battle with the Type 547 engine fan housing. I think the DTM is interesting, but for the money he could have had a modified 547.

FJC