MY '64

Post by **Marc** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:40 pm

That's good. Now, what kind of front end does it have? If it's balljoint and there's no evidence that the frame head was ever replaced, I'll bet you'll be able to find where a hunk of tunnel from the `64 that goes with the title was welded into a later pan (extremely illegal).
If it's kingpin, odds are the chassis is legit and matches the title, but at some point in time a later body was swapped onto it without documentation. Is there an aluminum VIN tag riveted in behind the spare tire? What number's on it? If it matches the pan and the title, they switched it for the one from the original `64 body (also illegal). If it were a small-window `58-`64 body nobody but a VW fanatic would notice any subtle differences, but the big windows ain't subtle.

H4ppy80y · Post by **H4ppy80y** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:51 pm

it looks legit...and theres no metal tab anywhere on the car the only place i see one is under the back seat and it doesnt look like it was welded there

H4ppy80y · Post by **H4ppy80y** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:52 pm

and it has a ball joint i think im pretty sure

green1965bug · Post by **green1965bug** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:55 pm

Im with Marc on this one, also if you dont see that metal tag in the spare tire area thats alittle fishy. This sucks too cause you got a deal on it and it's not in real bad shape. "I" do think that body is a 65 or 66 body, go get a book and see what a balljoint frontend looks like and a link/kingpin frontend looks like and see what you got. Did the seller tell you that it had "some" 65 parts on it? Because he might be thinking that you are starting to think something is wrong here and to try and cover his but said, yeah, it's got "some" 65 parts on it. Because for that matter you could have several deferent years of parts on that bug, so why did he say 65 parts. Probably because thats what it is, (a 65) but he knows thats not whats on the title. Just a thought! Danny.........

Post by **Marc** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:55 pm

H4ppy80y wrote:and it has a ball joint i think im pretty sure

If the lower control arms look like this:
http://www2.cip1.com/photos/VWC-131-405-152-A-2T.jpg
It's balljoint, which didn't exist prior to 1966. Pay particular attention to the outboard end where it meets the spindle - if there are rubber boots there, it's balljoint.
As I mentioned earlier, it is possible to replace the front section of the pan on an early (kingpin) chassis so that a balljoint beam will bolt up - but it'd be hard to do without leaving any traces.

H4ppy80y · Post by **H4ppy80y** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:12 pm

i called the owner, which is my very good friends grandfather, and he said that it was a later '64 and the later '64 came with some '65 parts!!

green1965bug · Post by **green1965bug** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:27 pm

Ok, and that may be true. Did you look to see what kind of frontend you have? It might verywell have some 65 parts on it. "I" just think that the shell of it is a 65 or 66. Danny........

Post by **Marc** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:51 pm

H4ppy80y wrote:i called the owner, which is my very good friends grandfather, and he said that it was a later '64 and the later '64 came with some '65 parts!!

No. There have been many cars which were mistitled one way or the other, particularly at model-year-change season, but there were no 1964 Beetles sold in the USA with big windows. If the car had a 115xxxxxx VIN and the title said 1964, I'd accept it - but that body would never have a 1964 VIN, period.
Still waiting to hear what kind of front suspension it has. Frankly I'm getting tired of this (it's like talking to vwgirl, all argument, no resolution)...I'm only trying to help, but you don't seem to want to hear the facts. Good luck.

H4ppy80y · Post by **H4ppy80y** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:24 pm

alright im a 16 year old guy ok...this is my first car...my dad is helping me rebuild this because he has already rebuild 3 other volkswagen beetles i have helped him with one and it was an older one...i have no history with working with a '64 i have helped with a '70 and thats it i have no clue what kind of front supension im sorry...ill will ask my dad next time i talk to him but he doesnt live with me so i cant ask him...i will email him and ask and ill get back to you...im sorry if i am being difficult!!

green1965bug · Post by **green1965bug** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:34 pm

Ok, just have him check it out and then you'll know what kind of frontend you got. You got a deal on it I just wanted to know what you had and I would'nt want you to drop alot of money in something stolen or something wierd like that. Later! Danny........

Post by **Marc** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:49 pm

green1965bug wrote:...I would'nt want you to drop alot of money in something stolen or something wierd like that....

That's where I'm coming from, too. Here's a better picture to show the differences between the kingpin & balljoint front suspensions:
http://www.sandstorm2.com/misc%20vw%20parts%20info.htm
The only way a balljoint beam will fit on a "kingpin" chassis (the distance between the tubes is wider on the BJ piece) is to replace the frame head - doable, but quite an ambitious project for the DIY'er:
http://www.geocities.com/mpernice/77bug/Frameheadx.html

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:03 pm

Here are pictures of the ball-joint suspension I just 'restored' for one of our projects...(the beam has adjusters in the middle which your car won't likely have)

http://photobucket.com/albums/v212/Kafe ... uspension/

ghettobug · Post by **ghettobug** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:37 pm

ok, well i have a question. i have a 64 pan 56 body bug, its registered by the pan only. (i didnt buy it this way i was the one that put the different body on the pan) is my bug illegal?? by the way i had the same problem when i bought my bug. the title says 63 but it was really a 64 metal sunroof bug

green1965bug · Post by **green1965bug** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:10 am

I "believe" that if the title matches up with the pan then your ok.

Post by **Marc** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:03 pm

It all depends upon the jurisdiction, and of course how much the official involved cares. On cars this old many of them will give a lot of slack (I think they figure even if the parts were hot the case is far too cold to bother with opening up)...if the number on the title matches the one stamped into the pan and there are no other different numbers to be found they'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Technically in my state when you do a chassis swap you're supposed to bring the car in for inspection along with both titles (in your name) and the receipts for any materials used for the project; if everything's in order they issue a new state-assigned VIN which is used for titling/registration purposes from that point forward - I've never heard of any other state that makes it quite that difficult. One issue we have is that in some parts of the state emissions inspections are required, and the standards vary by model year so somebody has to decide what year the car is - worst-case they might decide that it's a brand-new vehicle and expect it to meet the same emissions limits as a 2004, but that rarely happens except when building a kit-car.

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