I don't think heat will be that big of a deal, especially with a modified DTM that would be compatible with the heads.
I'm not saying we are giving up, I'm just thinking of halting where we are until we get results from our prototypes and until Roberto gets some data and prices as well.
This is very expensive development and making the wrong decision can cost 10,000.00 in a blink of the eye.
www.apfelbeck.nl
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cidarfritz
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 pm
So i guess you know these sites, performance digrams and the pricetags perfectly well.MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:This is very expensive development and making the wrong decision can cost 10,000.00 in a blink of the eye.
Are you going to import these to the US?
http://www.engineplus.de/pages/eng/engnavi.html
http://www.engineplus.de/pages/eng/menu3.html
just allow one "stupid German comment":
this is not somebody changing his company adress every half a year or so,
and a Type 1 style exhaust fits right on.
Greetings
Stephan
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
I have heads similar to those, but with a much different approach in the works. Thats what I may or may not go through with now.
My heads will have better cooling capability and will be 100% made from Billet, no molding process at all.
I bought a set of the heads you pictured just to test against my heads for data.
My heads will have better cooling capability and will be 100% made from Billet, no molding process at all.
I bought a set of the heads you pictured just to test against my heads for data.
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Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22844
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
No, but we are going to DROOL ALL OVER our monitors now...
Thanks for the pics, I WAS having a constructive evening...;-)
Can the BeCu seats handle street use if DLC coated?
(DLC has great heat transefer capabilty, should be no different heat transfer wise than just BeCu)
Thanks for the pics, I WAS having a constructive evening...;-)
Can the BeCu seats handle street use if DLC coated?
(DLC has great heat transefer capabilty, should be no different heat transfer wise than just BeCu)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
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Frallan
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 12:01 am
Piledriver,
In Sweden and Germany I know for sure that those seats last very long time on the street.
First time I saw them on a street beetle was 15 years ago and since then I have never heard a bad word.
At the time and probably still the material used is Johnson JM7. At least in Sweden.
DelWest, PPPc and probably many more companies in the US have other similar bronze materials well spread and used in the racing industry.
Motorcycles utilize these very commonly in USA.
For racing I know BeCu and other bronze materials are running 24 h races.
As for DLC coatings, seen it on valves, tappets, camshafts, pistonsskirts, rods, gidgeon pins, cranks but to be honest, never on a seat.
Stephan, give us your feedback on how well tested these are in race and street.
Jake, any feedback from your testing?
In Sweden and Germany I know for sure that those seats last very long time on the street.
First time I saw them on a street beetle was 15 years ago and since then I have never heard a bad word.
At the time and probably still the material used is Johnson JM7. At least in Sweden.
DelWest, PPPc and probably many more companies in the US have other similar bronze materials well spread and used in the racing industry.
Motorcycles utilize these very commonly in USA.
For racing I know BeCu and other bronze materials are running 24 h races.
As for DLC coatings, seen it on valves, tappets, camshafts, pistonsskirts, rods, gidgeon pins, cranks but to be honest, never on a seat.
Stephan, give us your feedback on how well tested these are in race and street.
Jake, any feedback from your testing?
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ratwell
- Posts: 158
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:01 am
Haven't you converted Euros to USD lately? Selling a less expensive head isn't a possibility?MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:But after reading this and sleeping on it I don't know if I should even go forward any further with my head development. I have a set of prototypes done for my engine but since these are overhead cam they will be far superior and I may never be able to really get anywhere with my heads because of this..
Except you are betting they will be available someday otherwise you'll have no heads at all. So how are you going to hedge your bets?At the point I am at right now I would only lose alot of my time if I halt the process and would not lose any extra money like I will if I go forward with the heads and can't really sell them. At least I'll have a one -off set for my 3.0. I'm just glad this happened now while my options are still open.
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Frallan
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 12:01 am
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
Here you have a couple of views on the cam arrangment made easy. No considerations on length and if it would fit inside the engine bay.
It did fit BUT with small dents for the cam drives and the fan solution was to move the license plate out with a duct for incoming air.
T1 cooling would be the way to go and not 911, if done again
Here you have a couple of views on the cam arrangment made easy. No considerations on length and if it would fit inside the engine bay.
It did fit BUT with small dents for the cam drives and the fan solution was to move the license plate out with a duct for incoming air.
T1 cooling would be the way to go and not 911, if done again
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
The apfelbeck cam drive design will fit in an unmodified engine bay, both lateral and towards the rear valance, unless you go crazy with stroke and rod length, but then you have the same trouble as with a pushrod driven head...
Roberto will probably/hopefully comment tonight.
Walter
Roberto will probably/hopefully comment tonight.
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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Frallan
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 12:01 am
Hello Walter,
Yes, that was kind of my message too. My camdrives extend a lot and still they cleared with very minor bumps. Yours must have no problem. A conclusion drawn prior to even seeing them.
I didn't express it before but you can guess what I like about your "hobby teamwork"?
Absolutely amazing! I am very jealous for not being part of it but still I wish you the best of succes in your endevours.
The sharing you guys are doing is also very apreciated by me and for sure by many others too.
Your addition of the homepage is nice....very nice.
Isn't technology with digital cameras, CAD simulations, internet and hightech materials and electronics fantastic for people like us?
Yes, that was kind of my message too. My camdrives extend a lot and still they cleared with very minor bumps. Yours must have no problem. A conclusion drawn prior to even seeing them.
I didn't express it before but you can guess what I like about your "hobby teamwork"?
Absolutely amazing! I am very jealous for not being part of it but still I wish you the best of succes in your endevours.
The sharing you guys are doing is also very apreciated by me and for sure by many others too.
Your addition of the homepage is nice....very nice.
Isn't technology with digital cameras, CAD simulations, internet and hightech materials and electronics fantastic for people like us?
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Yeah, its kind-a cool huh?Frallan wrote:Hello Walter,
Isn't technology with digital cameras, CAD simulations, internet and hightech materials and electronics fantastic for people like us?
Thanks for the kind words towards Roberto and Ronald Torben. I know you have went OHC even much longer ago and know what's involved
Tag,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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roberto
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:40 am
To Jake:
Jake,
First of all, we are not commercially involved people at all, we are just three very enthousiastic type 4 afficionados that want to try finish this project. The remarkable history behind the heads is another aspect that really drives us to finish this no matter what.
In our enthousiasm for the project we wanted to share the development with other type 4 enthousiasts. That was the main reason to make this web-site. We have or had no intention at all to kill off other interesting head projects, nor do we see this as a contest of any kind. Each may have its place for the appropiate type of engine.
Secondly, we want to emphesize that the development of these heads will take time. Its really going more progressively now Ronald (Wesayso) is helping out with the design and we can calculate a lot of things without having to break parts several times to know if certain things will work or not. Of course, the first one or two engines will have to prove themselves in reality to see if everything will hold up and the expected power is made. This may take as long as two years to complete.
Then and only then, we will certainly keep the possibility open to reproduce the heads and the then tested and (cnc reproduced) parts for third parties. As you will know, cnc reproduced parts are not really that costly to make once you have a working prototype and programmed the machine. Also, cast heads will not be rediculously expensive by itself if you do not count the prelimenary R&D work. Also, the R&D will be done anyway because, obviously, I want the heads to work on our own engines first of all.
So, all the trouble of reproducing the heads in small quantities should of course pay for some some of our own costs, but we do not have the illusion that it will cover all, nor would it be realistic. For us, its really a (thrilling) hobby, we want to have fun doing it and it should preferably stay that way.
That said, we want to refer you all to the web-site to keep you informed about the development and progress of the heads as we will update it hopefully every now and then with new information and pictures.
I hope I/we make sense to you and that you now know what our intentions are.
Best regards,
Roberto
Jake,
First of all, we are not commercially involved people at all, we are just three very enthousiastic type 4 afficionados that want to try finish this project. The remarkable history behind the heads is another aspect that really drives us to finish this no matter what.
In our enthousiasm for the project we wanted to share the development with other type 4 enthousiasts. That was the main reason to make this web-site. We have or had no intention at all to kill off other interesting head projects, nor do we see this as a contest of any kind. Each may have its place for the appropiate type of engine.
Secondly, we want to emphesize that the development of these heads will take time. Its really going more progressively now Ronald (Wesayso) is helping out with the design and we can calculate a lot of things without having to break parts several times to know if certain things will work or not. Of course, the first one or two engines will have to prove themselves in reality to see if everything will hold up and the expected power is made. This may take as long as two years to complete.
Then and only then, we will certainly keep the possibility open to reproduce the heads and the then tested and (cnc reproduced) parts for third parties. As you will know, cnc reproduced parts are not really that costly to make once you have a working prototype and programmed the machine. Also, cast heads will not be rediculously expensive by itself if you do not count the prelimenary R&D work. Also, the R&D will be done anyway because, obviously, I want the heads to work on our own engines first of all.
So, all the trouble of reproducing the heads in small quantities should of course pay for some some of our own costs, but we do not have the illusion that it will cover all, nor would it be realistic. For us, its really a (thrilling) hobby, we want to have fun doing it and it should preferably stay that way.
That said, we want to refer you all to the web-site to keep you informed about the development and progress of the heads as we will update it hopefully every now and then with new information and pictures.
I hope I/we make sense to you and that you now know what our intentions are.
Best regards,
Roberto
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danielzink
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2000 12:01 am