Shoptalkforums.com

Ray, I could use help on 2 items:

1. FAG 529593 rear inner pinion bearing - no luck with Purvis, FAG Automotive, Long Transaxles, etc on a crossmatch. Any other sources?

2. Torlon counter gear cluster bushings sketch - could you email a sketch?

Thanks,
Bill

Sorry for the delay. I can have a sketch to you by tomorrow morning.
This may be a tough one. Check A&W bearing in Dallas and Bearings and chain inc in Dallas. I don't have the #' on me. they should be in the book.

Now...none of these are going to "stock" this bearing. Bearing companies are lazy. Unless its big money...they will say...nope! thast not to say they will not order it if you press. Just that they hate doing the footwork.

Somewhere...someone has something close that is still available but needs to be ordered. By close...I mean same race diameter for the inner hub...maybe a different chamfer....which we can adjust for. Or...different outer race thickness whcih we can adjust for....like you found on the bell housing end.
I may very be that I have one. I have numerous spare bearings. A couple that are lightly used with matching races...and a couple that actually have teh wrong chamfer/fillet radius. Thats easy to fix...but the mainshaft would have to have the fillet reduced at the legde where the bearing sits by light grinding.

Usually you will need to take this bearing into a bearing dealer...physically...and have it measured. A lot of times...automotive bearing part #'s have no direct correlation to modern bearing part #;s. Ray

For clarification sake, the FAG 529593 bearing I am searching for is on the bellhousing end ("rear pinion bearing"). It is the inner race with rollers and cage. It is similar to the "front" bearing, but taller.

FAG Automotive says FAG 529593 is "discontinued and purged from database". Examination of my Type 4 microfiche indicates that Aug 73 and later frame numbers got a manual trans with different front and rear pinion bearings (this trans is Nov 73 in a '74 frame). July 73 and earlier have the same pinion bearings - Timken M86648A inner with Timken M86610 - on front and rear, and are still available (Aug 73+ uses these on the front). I'm still waiting on the new bearings to show so I can measure and compare (I lost the rollers and cage for the front bearing). I'll get measurements and try to get a local bearing shop to find an equivalent replacement based on specs. Alternatively, a spacer may have to due.

With 004's more common in Europe, I'd appreciate any help you guys can provide finding FAG 529593.

Ray - thanks for working out the sketch on the Torlon bushing, I'm ready to move forward with machine work.

Here is the critical part. You can use any rller bearing and race that will fit on the bell housing end...as long as the measured depth/distance of the gear on the end of the pinion shaft ends up identical to what it was. Its no problem to fit shims either under the bearing itself or under the race to achieve this. This depth measurement of the gear is the most critcial in all of the transmission.

This is because....unlike other transmissions....the pinion shaft...is also teh main gearing shaft. If the placment of that pinion gear in its relation to how far it is from teh center of the differntial housing and its subsequent contact on teh ring gear is not put back to where it was within about .002-.003" max...it causes noise and wear to both gears. Worse than that....it changes every single gear relationship in the transfer case...because they are all set on the same shaft.

So...for instance....if the pinion gear winds up .020" closer to the bell housing....the entire gear stack moves .020" closer to the bell housing. You will then have to move the counter cluster .020" closer to the gear housing and make new end thrust plates for the counter cluster in order to do this. that will also mean puttting a thicker shim behind the large ball bearing on teh tail cone end to keep it tight in the case.
this will also mean a differnt adjustment to the reverse gear idler...but thats not hard.

So...did the roller bearing you took off of the bell housing end of the pinion shaft crater? Is this the one that lost cage and rollers? If not...there are a few things you can do.
If you have that bearing relatively intact.....put it back on. Put the old race back in the bell housing end. Re-install the five hole shim and the pinion shaft and re-install the bearing at the other end.
This is just the bell housing, pinion shaft and bearings. Make up the adjusting ring to where it started. This is close enough.

Now....borrow a long depth mike or set up a very fine machinist square on the edge of the case so you can measure exactly how high out of the case when standing on end....the pinion carrier stands....AND make a very fine mark on the pinion shaft.

From this mark...you now have a refernce as to how far the pinion carrier and shaft protrude from the case....whne installed with the gear and shaft in original position with the original bearings. This way...no matter what bearings you have to use.....you can trial fit back and forth until the marks you made line up to within a max of .003". Then its simply a matter of adjusting preload on that adjusting ring on teh pinion shaft with the new bearings.

I ahve been where you are now. It complicates things...but take your time. As simple as this transmission is....this parts problem made my refurb a three month gig. Ray

The elusive rear pinion bearing (bell housing end) FAG 529593/Timken M88010 set appears to have:
ID 1.2187"
OD 2.6875"
Thickness 0.875"

I have found SKF M 88043 having:
ID 1.1875"
OD 2.6875"
Thickness 0.875"

What do you think about turning the pinion shaft down to fit this SKF?

My original rear bearing is still in one piece and I've measured it's height to be 0.875". The front bearing is the one I lost the cage and rollers from, but I have replacement inner/outer that are perfect match.

Grinding the small fillet where the bearing seats is one thing...but turning the shaft...hmmmmm. I think that shaft may be case hardened. You also will have to duplicate the proper interference fit for the new bearing. But that is doable...considering you are at the very end of the shaft.

Hang loose. Of course the ID is most critical. It has to fit the shaft. Lets take our time in searching out bearings. It took me months.
You really will have to actually go to the bearing dealers with the old bearing....more than one.

Let me think about that one.
The difference in inner diameter is .0312. Thats only .0156 off of each side of the shaft looking in cross section.

I say do it. Also considering the the thickness is the same....if you can get teh race close...or less than original so you can shim it up...you are gold!
Key is though as I mentioned....before you destroy the old bell housing end bearing...have it pressed back on to establish a base height of protrusion on teh pinion shaft. Ray

Ray, I don't understand why you want to measure the pinion shaft with respect to the case to determine the location of the pinion gear to the case when comparison of bearing thickness gets the same result -- pinion gear with correct mesh to ring gear. My pinion shaft does not have a chamfer on the bell housing end as it seats to the pinion gear, so if the overall thickness of the bearing set ("cup" and "cone" matched with slight preload) is the same between OEM bearing and replacement, then the pinion gear will be correctly meshed with ring gear.

This SKF outer race ("cup") would fit in the bearing cover without modification. I'll buy one and measure it before modifying the pinion shaft.

Loosely hung,
Bill

Thats not entirely true. I thought so my self. A lot of very small things can change a lot of large ones.
For instance, if the race is a couple thou thicker....in total height, that is an easy thing to see. But...if the angle ground on the inside of the race where it contacts the rollers is off a hair...that stacks up fast!. If the compression in the bearing press is slightly different than stock...you can gain a thousandth there. New sealer at the five bolt nosecone...new o-ring at the five bolt nosecone ....it can get scary quick considering the tools to actually check if the pinion gear distance from center to edge on teh ring gear....does not exist for this tranny and its very very difficult to get anything accurate in there.

All I'm saying is that is you have the original bearing, race seal etc....even just for the bell houding end (you don't need a bearing on the other)....I would bolt in the carrier...put a weight on the end of the shaft equal to what you will set the preload to when thebearings are in.....and get a reference mark as to where the shaft is in its last known good position (assuming this tranny was running good when you opened it). Kind of like setting a "system restore point" inwindows.

If this pinion position does not get back right...oh yes you will know it easy enough...but consider this... you may see very little difference in the measured height of the new to old bearing and race combination....if it does not work out.... it would sure be nice to know how far off the mark the pinion is now...from where it was when it ran good last. Thats all I'm saying this for.
Its not like we can screw these up and call Weddle engineering for a new ring and pinion. I wish!

Not trying toslow you down at all. Just that we are basically doing a "refurb/reset" of clerarances....not an overhaul. I am getting to apoint where I may have enough parts and fixes to say that we can do an overhaul someday. But until then....I have to say that I have been through and into these gearboxes about a dozen times over ten years...fixing this, replacing that...disecting each of the three (out of the eight or so I have been in contact with) that I grenaded through not knowing and making mistakes.
I'm not afraid to make changes or do machine work.....but Ican still remember the day when I heaved an entire pinion shaft from a perfectly good 004 into the trash barrel...because I got in a hurry with the bearing opposite the bell housing...and installed one with the wrong letter code i put a .002 curve in the shaft on teh press. Junk......along with all of the settings and shims on the main shaft....and the entire case. The case is built and adjusted around the pinion shaft (actually vica versa). Toss them in the trash with the pinion shaft. the rest is just good parts to work with on other boxes now.

Simply put you could kill and swap a pinion shaft on these.......but because no spec and setting books exist for this transmission....and there are some specialized tools we may never duplicate....it would be all trial and error.

The pinion to ring position relationship would survive not very long trial and erroring to get teh dimension back on. You change the pinion depthdimension...you change every gear relationship in the case.
If you know what those relationships are to start with...its easier to get back to them. Ray

Torlon counter gear cluster bushing design intent now clarified - thanks Ray




Outer chamfer feeds oil from 3 grooves in ends of gear
End groove feeds oil from outer chamfer to inner bevel
Inner sharp ended bevel pumps oil into ID groove (ends need filling to make sharp)
First ID groove passes >50% of bushing length to oil counter shaft
Second ID groove 180 degrees opposed of first ID groove does the same, but from inside the gear
Both ends have same detail, just opposed
Overall length is depth of bore in gear
OD groove shows location of anti-rotation pin milled into gear and bushing to secure press fit

Background info from email exchange with Ray:

----- Original Message ----
From: Ray
To: Bill
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:06:57 AM
Subject: Re: Counter Gear Cluster Bushings

Ah!...almost forgot. The three grooves will act as either supply...or drains depending on where oil is coming from.
The problem with this thing is that there is no force fed oil. Without the grooves in the face of the gear, the only means oil had to get to the bushings...was through that ridiculously small center oil hole between the 2nd and 3rd gear on the counter cluster. Oil pretty much flowed into the space in the center of the gear when the car was still....because the oil level "should" be high enough for the oil to cover past the top of the counter cluster so oil would flow in no matter what the position of the gear oil hole was when you stopped. But....oil generally does not move into the hole in the gear while you are driving....so your needle bearings pretty much had to deal with what oil they had in them. Now we know gear oil is pretty tough stuff....but imagine what effect say....an 8 hour drive has on the quality of oil in the needle bearings.
I found over the years that the two trannys that I drove long highway miles with....like 50k a year....went through counter gear needle bearings fast. They were starving for good un-overheated oil. When I put the grooves in....it worked better.
I also widened the oil hole in the counter cluster just slightly. That is hard to do because the gear is so hard and the crevice is so deep.

What you need to do is bevel the outside edge of the bushing all the way around...and run a cross connect groove across the top face of the bushing connecting the outer bevel with the inside bushing groove that is against the shaft. You can then align the bushing any way you want.
The really nice thing about this bushing material...is that it is dense, hard enough, has a very high temp rating (at least 550F constant)...and has a coefficient of friction that is just marginally below teflon by a couple percent. Its very slick.

One other thing I am working on that should be really do-able. Envision this......a bar of something slick and high temp (torlon would be expensive teflon less so)....about 1/4" thick, about 3" wide and about 3" long......with a curve and an angle cut in one end and a groove inside of the curve...and two bolt holes in the other end.

What I propose to do with it...is bolt it to the tranmission pan lid with a piece of spring steel underneath it. The curved end would go upward to make contact with the groove between second and third gear on the counter shaft.....so the curve in the bar of plastic would be shaped to fit the shaft...but have an angle cut off to one side.

What this is is a "squeezer". As the counter gear rotates pushing oil ahead of it....the oil gets squeezed up against the plastic and pushed into the oil hole in the gear. It works a lot like the walls or swales you see in some oil pumps..where the gear pushes the oil up against a tapering divider to create pressure.
In this case...I would not even care if it generated pressure. I would care that it generates flow even at near "0" pressure. Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill
To: Ray
Sent: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Counter Gear Cluster Bushings

Thanks Ray. I understand. What is the relationship of the bushing bevel/oil groove to the 3 face grooves in the gear?

----- Original Message ----
From: Ray
To: Bill
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:55:56 AM
Subject: Re: Counter Gear Cluster Bushings

Sorry for the delay. This is a cheezy cross section sketch with some explaination. These are really simple to do. You can do them with either a ball end carbide burr on a dremel...or just as easily by taking a $2 round needle file and snapping off the tapered end to make it not tapered. There needs to be two half round oil grooves...180* apart. One starts from one end of the bushing...one starts from the other. Each oil groove overlaps the centerline of the bearing by just a little bit.
The grooves do not need to be very deep.....maybe .045-.050" at deepest...just so thick gear oil has no issues about flowing into it.
The bevel on the outer edge must only intersect one side of the oil grooves you make.....in other words the bevels do NOT overlap the end of the oil groove. The bevels only go 1/4 of the way around the end of the bushing....so you will see one end of the bushing bevelled 1/4 of the way and so will the other. You need to make sure what direction the gear generally turns...so the bevels "trail" oil grooves.

Bill K. wrote:With 004's more common in Europe, I'd appreciate any help you guys can provide finding FAG 529593.

I have put down a request for the FAG bearing at our 'we have it all' (and they usually do) tool/bearing shop. Should know more next week.
(did you get the injectors yet?)

Injectors arrived in great shape. Thank you Walter! I'd be great to find a few of those rear pinion bearings for our Aug '73 and later cars.

That drawing you made is almost spot on what I have in my car. Mine were machined to get rough shape...but all of my grooves were done with a file. They work well. The only thing that was anafterthought and I have not done on mine but will....is the locating pin. My bushings are a tight fit when hot....and I have not "felt" any issues when driving but I will see if the bearings tended to spin when I get a chance to tear the tranny down in July. I think pinnning the bushing to the gear is still the safest thing even if they did not spin.

About the bearings.....yes some may be discontinued. There should be somewhere...something close enough that minor mods can make then work. Its difficult though. As I noted....since we do not have the original measuring tooling for this tranny....and the pinion gear depth is set from te hfinal drive casing and shim combo.....at the very worst...it would be worth finding a way to measure what the "original" pinion depth setting is on any given 004 tranny...before taking the bearings from the main shaft.

If we can find an easy way to measure....you can then use almost any bearing and use as much time modifying and trial fitting to get teh original pinion depth back...because you have an easy way to measure depth.

I agonized over this for months while rebuilding my last tranny. One thing I thought about but just never tried.....was to remove the pinion shaft and bell housing bearing cover.....and drill a small hole through both the bearing cover. Then devise a solid, repeatable micrometer mount to go under one of the five bolts inside of the bell housing...with a "0" point setting.

I say micrometer and not dial indicator because dial indicators are too easy to get "off" due to angles etc. I would then take one of my cheaper but accurate ratchet spindle micrometers and cut away the frame with the contact anvil. The spindle could then reach through the hole to contact just the flat lands of the outer edge of the gear.

This was all just thinking. But you will realize that the hole you make must be outside the edge of the bearing race and nowhere in the center of it...because the spindle cannot reach through the bearing to contact the pinion gear. That means that in order to reach that area....the spindle with probably have to run at an angle. You would need a spindle with at least 2.5" length and a pointed mandrel on the end.
You can buy just a micrometer spindle with a threaded outer body from macmaster car for maybe $65. So....you find a location and make a hole in the bellhousing that can be plugged. Thread it carefully. Screw the micrometer in until it stops on its threads. Then screw the spindle in until you can see it contact one of the gear top faces on the pinion.
Record what is on the micrometer. Do whatever you need to on the transmission. When you reassemble....first reinstall the micrometer in its threaded hole. Turn it until the ratchet thimble tells you contact has been made. Check the measurement. If its off......you either add to the shim at the bell housing end.....or subract from it by lapping it.

This is the first measurement you MUST set on reassembly. Then you can adjust the threaded bearing ring at the other end for bearing preload.....then install the differential and adjust the lash and side to side spacing with light preload....then adjust preload...then check it again and adjust again. Ray

I received this 004 last week from a shop who got it from a VW training facility several years ago. It looks like it has never been in a car... Not bad for $250 with shipping. I'm going to disassemble, inspect, and upgrade the countershaft bearings to bushings.




Also glad to have found a NOS 210mm clutch disk

Now have pinion bearings and will be resizing pinion shaft for a smaller ID rear bearing.

Still waiting on countershaft bushing machine work.

Holy crap! what a find! before you remove teh differential and pinion from the final drive housing...contact me. I want to run by you...a method I have beeen thinking up that will allow us with one minor mod to be able before pulling tehpinion out of any 004 case...to know the depth setting of the pinion relative to bell housing bearing.....and to simply put it back in that way. Ray

Now that is an extremely cool find and score!
Congrats. Use it!