2,4 type4 turbo 500hp -on gasoline- goal

[Wally]

Could you fit a modern steel liner? Is there lenough spare thickness in the cylinder for that?

Steel in cast iron? enough room I suppose, but I won't go there for so many reasons
Thanks for thinking outside the box with me though!

[richie,uk]

Hi Walter,

Happy xmas


Is strange that happened to you, I haven't heard of any other issues with those cylinders but all the ones i know of were in a t1 configuration and 6 studded. My own AA 101.6 cylinders are still good after 5 years or so even after some det issues on e85 a while back, run them around 30psi and CCP is tiny amount. I am wondering if the t4 stud arrangement is some of the problem?
Are you logging ccp? it would at least show when you were having a problem occur.

[Bruce.m]

When BMW used cast iron M10 production blocks in their crazy 80’s F1 M12 turbo engines, they used 2nd hand blocks with plenty of miles on them as the basis for the machining work.

[Piledriver]

It would be interesting to have them rebored as say 103s after being heat cycled in their new shape and see if they hold that shape better.
I suppose its possible the deep cuts for the head studs and very uneven thickness aggravate things.

I still have that set of EMPI/Mahle 100s I want to do something silly with... I dont think they were ever run, bores just rusted on the shelf.
Pistons look as never run.

[Wally]

Hi Walter,

Happy xmas


Is strange that happened to you, I haven't heard of any other issues with those cylinders but all the ones i know of were in a t1 configuration and 6 studded.

Cheers! Ho-ho-ho

Me neither, so I was in good hopes.. but I guess all your 6-stud buddies run some sort of alkohol? E85 or Methanol?
Maybe because of me running E0 that everything gets a little hotter in the burn? My oil stays very cool otoh.

Are you logging ccp? it would at least show when you were having a problem occur.

Haha! Mate, I can't even get the wheel speed sensor to work
But no, I don't even measure ccp, but its one of those things you know have have or have not as the vehicle owner so to speak. I'am sure you know what I mean LOL!

Interesting is also that I run one "new" Deutz cylinder and that one had 5/100mm ovality! So it happend really quickly and detonation was not the issue.
Pistons really still look great though!

On a serious note - and one I hate to admit (only) to you - the original type 4 stud location IS a downside of the platform: Even though these billet heads are STIFF as F, there were some light traces of escaped gasses between (only) the lower studs. As you know, not only are the lower studs a lot longer, but also the outer lower ones are 4mm wider apart then the upper ones.. It all doesn't help. I still run these without flame rings or anything and at original torque, so its actually not too bad. Also considering there was a bit of a small fualt at the last maching of the heads as the cylinders rest on 1mm less seating (on the inside no less) area then they should have... so, lots of small things all not as perfect as could have been, but also lots of small hopes I can better the situation and hope to skim a tenth or so at SCC (thats the plan still, fingers crossed).

Tnx for chiming in!

[richie,uk]

Mine[the old cab] has been on gasoline based fuel for a while now, yes race fuel to make it live at 30psi, the deutz cylinder engines i know are a mixture of different fuels, some gasoline based and some not.
When i used to run regular mahle cylinders on 1st old cab turbo engine I always used 2nd hand ones with plenty of miles on them, could pick them up cheap and they did seem to survive better than any new ones i used on customers builds[they always wanted new, wouldn't believe older used was better ] I only ever split one[at 1st scc i attended ironically] even though i torched the heads a few times back then learning the boundaries of cheap parts!!!

It was that stud pattern difference i was thinking of but its possible the cylinders just needed to heat cycle a few times to settle in, be interesting to get them honed round and try again, but a time consuming test if it doesn't work

[Wally]

Good to hear those experiences!
From what I learned at the engine workshop locally: honing stress torqued cylinders is better, but honing is not boring a cylinder, i.e. and in my own words: The hone follows the cylinder under a certain pre-installed pressure towards thé cylinder wall. In other words, honing, not even stress honing can fully ‘rectify’ an out of round cylinder. He said it could bring maybe 2/100 out of round back, but not everything..
So its contemplating having special stress plates made for just these cylinders and still risk not having everything back to spec, or spend it towards a better solution right away. Or bin the engine
Lets hope my german mates have cooked up something that is somewhat affordable and works..

[Piledriver]

There was a fellow ages ago on Jakes board that made up a set of "long nuts" about 15mm dia, SS, with an oring at the top.
Machined the t4 heads to match (rocker box only), they seated down by the chambers and all studs were same length.
(stock castings) probably should have been thinner in the middle to less obstruct airflow over ~ex valve area.

Really you could do same with the 12 pt "aircraft" style nuts and just use npt plugs for the rocker box access holes.

I suppose you could do same with all long studs and spacers, but there's a lot of hot aluminum head changing dimensions the above setup eliminates.

Seemed a very interesting idea. No clue if it really helped.

I have seen that on some of the water cooled rigs, they basically tq/jam extra studs in the head from the top or sides to preload areas prone to leaks.
(gm 2/2.4l ecotec over ~600hp apparently requires that even with mls gaskets)

[Wally]

Well, it’s been a while, but in the above link you can see my new cylinders: diesel liners with alu cooling mantles: biral concept. It also has 6,5mm wall in the head, so hopefully this keeps a better equal temp and stays round better.

Casing is out for a 1mm bigger bore (107mm, so 2,5mm wall in the case), all to give roundness a better chance.
I now realize roundness is even more important then structural case integrity. At least at my power level.

Next update when the case is back!

[CobraJet]

Those sound and look amazing Walter! I love the fact that they've got the aluminum fins.

Where did you get these or are they something you made/had made?

[Wally]

Sorry, forgot to mention, but these are made by Thorsten Pieper in Germany. Same guy that made the tool steel lifters, alu pushrods, billet heads and dry-sump pump I run. Its almost a Pieper engine haha!
Disclaimer: I have no involvement in his products and am just a regular customer. He just seems to always make what I need LOL!

[CobraJet]

Ah yes TP, I should have known! LOL

Hmmm, they don't show on his website?
http://www.tp-technologie.de/produkte%20ueb.htm

[Wally]

No, there is more he makes that’s not on his site, get over it

[Chip Birks]

No, there is more he makes that’s not on his site, get over it

Haha, it's just hard to support a guy in his business ventures if he doesn't tell us what he wants to sell us. Unless of course he really doesn't want to have to sell lots of them and would rather news of his products spread to a secret select few.
Hopefully those new cylinders do what you need them to Wally! Always excited to see updates from you.

[Eddie010]

Well, it’s been a while, but in the above link you can see my new cylinders: diesel liners with alu cooling mantles: biral concept. It also has 6,5mm wall in the head, so hopefully this keeps a better equal temp and stays round better.

Casing is out for a 1mm bigger bore (107mm, so 2,5mm wall in the case), all to give roundness a better chance.
I now realize roundness is even more important then structural case integrity. At least at my power level.

Next update when the case is back!

Sweeeet