091/094 tranny to 412

[func412]

Thanks for ideas!

I decited to try C8 (33c, 3300 series) cables. The original Toyota Cable has 9,5 mm core, C8 has 8,5 mm.

C8 costs 30 euros (3 meters), C10 costs about 100 euros, each. I hope C8 will do its job.

I think this push-pull style cable can handle also some torgue, but with Toyota shifter its job is just to push and pull. The side to side movement is changed into forward-backward movement. So, two cables are doing this job.

I was first thinking to built 4 cable "pull" system, but this 2 "push-pull" cable system works in Toyota and several other cars, why not in VW? I think the issue is to get the system "tight" by good cables and connecting parts. Second issue is to get good shift distance.

[raygreenwood]

To get the system tight....can be done by getting rid of that floating coupling in the back. Its not hard...just tedious. You first have to stabilize the rear bushing of the transmission. Then put a solid coupler in like type 3. The tedious part is to adjust the turning arc. The original sliding ball coupler can be stabilized by setting to the correct height by slotting the shift rod hole in the plastic flange whjere it exits the body and installing a flat metal sliding bushing plate affixed by two screws. The drill a hole in teh ball and coupler in teh back...and pin then together laterally. Ray

[func412]

Here´s some info about Teleflex cables, if someone is interested:

http://www.teleflexmorse.com/documents/ ... gn&App.pdf

And more...

http://www.uflexusa.com/start.html
http://www.teleflexmorse.com/CableControls.html

[wildthings]

While thinking of installing a Vanagon 091 box have you considered the directions the linkage must move to find each gear? IIRC the shifter for a 091-1 box works exactly backwards from an early transporter 091 box, so I suspect that the late side shift 091 would shift backwards as well. Whatever shift link arraingment you use will have to take this into concideration.

[func412]

While thinking of installing a Vanagon 091 box have you considered the directions the linkage must move to find each gear? IIRC the shifter for a 091-1 box works exactly backwards from an early transporter 091 box, so I suspect that the late side shift 091 would shift backwards as well. Whatever shift link arraingment you use will have to take this into concideration.

Yes I have given some thought into this point also, and I see it´s only a question of placing the cable on the right side of gerbox shift axle. Under the axle the longitudinal (front-rear) movement is inverse compared above the axle, when cable comes from the same direction. Also side to side movement can be made inverse by simple mechanism.

[func412]

Let´s continue this story.

This picture gives some more belief for this project



To make the rear more stable for the racetrack, I´ve thought to weld this beam straight to chassis and lift it up about 10 cm. More noise but more stability, I guess.

[raygreenwood]

Be very careful when welding. The parts right behind the joint area is a "crumple" zone. Also...you need to be quite sure you get the alignment of that beam dead on.
Doesn't the tailcone of the 091...come out near the top of the tranny as compared to the bottom on the 004? I am wondering what you are doing to facilitae alignment? Over teh top of the beam...or through teh hole with teh tranny and engine slung low? Interesting. Ray

[func412]

There is no tailcone for shifter in this gearbox. As you can see this is a side shift, which is going to be controlled by cables.

I can make my own fake tailcone and locate it into the original hole.

Thanks for warning about welding. I saw it too beacause that place was guite rusty.

[raygreenwood]

Side shift...duh! Its what I get for not paying attention! Ray

[vwbill]

Hey Guys, looks like the coolest project we all what to see! I was just wondering if like Albert has talked about some of the Mercedes stuff being useful, is there any Merecedes Manual transmissions that are useful???
Also, you were saying you wanted the shifter closer to the steering wheel.
Why is that? Is it to be closer to the drivers range of movement on the track?? Also, I can see the solid cable types for response like my friends Chevy Cavalier had those in a short form for his fwd 2.4L. But what about a crazier idea of electronic servo shifting like they have on the steering wheel??? Thanks for the great posts! Is that the 411/412 rear suspension/tranny frame in your picture and could the frame from the tranny you are trying to use fit in the 411/412?? Bill
p.s.Aren't those the cables they use on boats to move the motor for steering too?

[func412]

you wanted the shifter closer to the steering wheel.
Why is that? Is it to be closer to the drivers range of movement on the track??

That´s the main reason. I also believe, it´s the easiest way to make side shift transmission work in 412.

But what about a crazier idea of electronic servo shifting like they have on the steering wheel???

Don´t tease me That would be cool! I haven´t looked for the prices of the electronics, maybe the cost is bit high.

Is that the 411/412 rear suspension/tranny frame in your picture and could the frame from the tranny you are trying to use fit in the 411/412??

Yes this is the rear suspension frame of 412 and the transmission is 091 with side shift (From Aircooled vanagon).

Aren't those the cables they use on boats to move the motor for steering too?

Yes, but they use differest kind of cables for steering. I´m looking the cables that are used for throttle and transmission.

[Wally]

Very cool project!
Pitty about the side shifting tho as it makes things a bit complicated.
Why not pick an earlier tranny without side shifting? (are those the 5-rib T2 trannies, 091?)

[raygreenwood]

Wally, I have never seen (myself) a side shifting 091 at least not over here. Then again, I don't work on busses much.
But the side shifter would solve one of the major issues of putting an 091 into a 411/412.
On the 004 4 speed.....the tail cone that goes through the rubber donut and passes through the rear crossmember is on the bottom side of the tail cone housing. On the 091...it is on the top side of the tail cone housing. That would put the 091 abnormally low to teh ground and give a really tough angle to the motor package...or would cause having to drop teh entire drivetrain package roughly 3".
For a long time I wondored if the 091 tail cone could go over the top of the beam and have the tailcone mount....mounted underneath the tailcone.
To do this, the access plate under the rear seat would have to be removed and modified....and the shifter linkage heavily modified with an extra bend near where it exits the tunnel. Its about as much work as the side shift...with not as clean of a result. Both are possible I think. Just as long as you are willing to work out the linkage issues. Ray

[func412]

I like this idea also! I´m only worried about shorter gear ratios, but it can be fixed with better 3&4th gears. I´ve heard that Weddle gears would be good choise.

As Ray said, I think the 091 with the nose cone is also possible. Only way to mount it properly is to make the tail cone go over the beam.

[func412]

Original shifter mechanism got a little bit better after assembling a new typ1 bushing at the front of the shiftrod. We also assembled typ1 short shift kit to make shifting faster.