Not a single good MPS in the whole lot...
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412jen
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:55 pm
So the MPS vwbill has graciously sent me has arrived. yay! Now, when I install it, am I going to have to do a bunch of tuning or do you all think I can slot it in and take my chances at emissions testing? The reason I ask is that I have to pay for day insurance to get it to the test site and would rather not if there is a good chance it will still fail.
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Excellent news Jen! Put her together and fire her up and see what it runs like!
If it idles nicely, and runs nicely (no smoke, no roughness), it should pass OK. I can get my Federal US-spec 1973 D-Jet 412 Wagon to an indicated 1% CO (using my Heathkit CO meter, probably closer to the spec value of 0.7% due to the meter's limited accuracy at low CO readings) with no problems. I don't know about HC and NOx readings, but I can tell you the plugs are squeaky-clean after 1200 miles, the exhaust is also clean, and the exhaust smells clean, too (not like my '67 MGB...that's another story), so the HC is probably pretty low, too. All with original D-Jet and a NOS Bosch replacement MPS (the original had a cracked full-load diaphgram, like yours). Yes, there is hope!
If not, the idle switch (underneath the throttle body) might need a little tweak to get it to close at idle (important for passing emission test). The computer must see the idle contacts closed to go into "idle" mixture mode. I know Ray has posted idle switch setting instructions here and on the Fuel Injection forum before, a search will find the data you need to do this. Yours may be working OK, but it's hard to tell without testing it.
You also might need to adjust the idle mixture with the "knob" on top of the computer (on wagons, behind the right side rear seat armrest panels...they pop off with those spring fastener things when you pry outward on the panel gently but patiently). Best way is with an exhaust carbon monoxide meter (or multi-gas analyzer), but usually somewhere near center of the range (or one-two clicks further clockwise) gets you close. There's usually some indication on the clicker ring around the "knob" that'll help you see where the factory set the "knob" originally (a dent, some paint, I've seen both on the D-Jet ECU's in my collection). That's also a good starting point in case a PO tried to "fix" it before and messed up the idle mixture setting. Ray's got threads on this on the FI forum, too.
Other than the idle mixture, there should be no other "mixture" tweaking required for a stock engine.
I'll be crossing fingers, eyes, and toes for you!
If it idles nicely, and runs nicely (no smoke, no roughness), it should pass OK. I can get my Federal US-spec 1973 D-Jet 412 Wagon to an indicated 1% CO (using my Heathkit CO meter, probably closer to the spec value of 0.7% due to the meter's limited accuracy at low CO readings) with no problems. I don't know about HC and NOx readings, but I can tell you the plugs are squeaky-clean after 1200 miles, the exhaust is also clean, and the exhaust smells clean, too (not like my '67 MGB...that's another story), so the HC is probably pretty low, too. All with original D-Jet and a NOS Bosch replacement MPS (the original had a cracked full-load diaphgram, like yours). Yes, there is hope!
If not, the idle switch (underneath the throttle body) might need a little tweak to get it to close at idle (important for passing emission test). The computer must see the idle contacts closed to go into "idle" mixture mode. I know Ray has posted idle switch setting instructions here and on the Fuel Injection forum before, a search will find the data you need to do this. Yours may be working OK, but it's hard to tell without testing it.
You also might need to adjust the idle mixture with the "knob" on top of the computer (on wagons, behind the right side rear seat armrest panels...they pop off with those spring fastener things when you pry outward on the panel gently but patiently). Best way is with an exhaust carbon monoxide meter (or multi-gas analyzer), but usually somewhere near center of the range (or one-two clicks further clockwise) gets you close. There's usually some indication on the clicker ring around the "knob" that'll help you see where the factory set the "knob" originally (a dent, some paint, I've seen both on the D-Jet ECU's in my collection). That's also a good starting point in case a PO tried to "fix" it before and messed up the idle mixture setting. Ray's got threads on this on the FI forum, too.
Other than the idle mixture, there should be no other "mixture" tweaking required for a stock engine.
I'll be crossing fingers, eyes, and toes for you!
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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Kirk Knighton
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:01 am
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MGVWfan
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Oh, yeah...make sure it's warmed up well before getting it tested, like 30-45 minutes of running, if at all possible. Even idling for 30 minutes or so will help. If the engine's warmed up and all the clearances are at normal running values (smaller than when cold), it helps HC emission readings, especially on older cars without catalytic converters. Even cat-equipped cars need to have the cat warmed up enough to "light off" before emission testing or the HC readings will be high (ask me sometime how I know that 
).
Yay!!!
).Yay!!!
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Great News Jen on her starting up!! What color was the cloud? White or blue? Can't wait to hear how she drives now!! How do they do that test there? Do you have a scheduled appointment or have to wait in a line? Keeping our fingers and toes crossed for you! Maybe you can get a idea how she is running after a good drive maybe if she drives ok at first then a good highway cleanout before would help from sitting?... Take care, Bill
p.s.Uber, any luck with your go ship?
p.s.Uber, any luck with your go ship?
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412jen
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:55 pm
-->vw bill, I don't recall the cloud colour but I know it is from the oil that is leaking through my tranny seal. It comes out from in front of the rear drivers side tire, not the tail pipe. After it burnt off it was fine.
So I put a day permit on my car and it failed again. Same sort of results. I drove her for about an hour on both the highway and on the city roads before heading to the test station, she drove really nicely the whole time. I had forgotten what a fun car it is!
The test procedure is as follows: go to the test station and sit in line and wait till there is a free bay. My wait was about 5 minutes. Then you pull up and pay your $23. The car is visibly looked at (they look at your gas cap and to see if the cat (if applicable) is present) and then you have to get out and wait in a booth and some guy runs it on a dyno. The test includes a driving test and an idle test. If you fail, they provide a "diagnostic tracing report" with lovely little charts and a booklet that tells you what all could be wrong with it. Most of the things they list are not even present on my 412 (o2 sensor, catalytic converter, carb issue). The break points on the test are supposedly set at 3 times to recommended amount and are based on weight class and age and nothing else. They do not take into consideration things like manual or automatic, fuel injected or carbs, etc.
If you fail, you are allowed a one time 3 months of insurance, to allow you time to repair it. In that time, you can go to an "approved Aircare repair facility" and pay up to a repair cost limit. If they are unable to make it pass but you spend up to the repair cost limit (which is in my case $300) then you are given a conditional pass good for one year.
Aircare is required every year on vehicles 91 and older, and every two years on vehicles 92 and newer. Every single vehicle requires Aircare in the Greater Vancouver Regional District. Buses, semi trucks, and trucks over a certain GVW are exempt.
I have now failed three times since buying this car, and have used up all of my licensing options. I have spent well over the $300 repair cost limit on my car, but because none of the "approved Aircare repair facilities" are aircooled VW specialists, I have chosen to spend my money at mechanics I trust and know or on parts to install myself, so anything I have spent is not applicable to that repair cost limit.
My options at this point are to license my car under my parents' address (thereby committing insurance fraud and not be covered in the event of an accident) or bribe one of the "approved Aircare repair facilities" to give me a conditional pass, which can and does happen more than Aircare would like to admit. Neither of these problems address the actual issue of horrible gas mileage, however, and are only short term solutions.
At this point, I am throwing in the towel. My mind is made. Bluebelle is going up for sale. She can live under a sheet in my garage until I am able to recoup my purchase price. I have scraped together enough to buy another vehicle.
I just want to say thank you for all of your help and support and advice. This entire process has been a good learning experience, even if the outcome isn't desirable.
Thanks again, guys.
Jen
So I put a day permit on my car and it failed again. Same sort of results. I drove her for about an hour on both the highway and on the city roads before heading to the test station, she drove really nicely the whole time. I had forgotten what a fun car it is!
The test procedure is as follows: go to the test station and sit in line and wait till there is a free bay. My wait was about 5 minutes. Then you pull up and pay your $23. The car is visibly looked at (they look at your gas cap and to see if the cat (if applicable) is present) and then you have to get out and wait in a booth and some guy runs it on a dyno. The test includes a driving test and an idle test. If you fail, they provide a "diagnostic tracing report" with lovely little charts and a booklet that tells you what all could be wrong with it. Most of the things they list are not even present on my 412 (o2 sensor, catalytic converter, carb issue). The break points on the test are supposedly set at 3 times to recommended amount and are based on weight class and age and nothing else. They do not take into consideration things like manual or automatic, fuel injected or carbs, etc.
If you fail, you are allowed a one time 3 months of insurance, to allow you time to repair it. In that time, you can go to an "approved Aircare repair facility" and pay up to a repair cost limit. If they are unable to make it pass but you spend up to the repair cost limit (which is in my case $300) then you are given a conditional pass good for one year.
Aircare is required every year on vehicles 91 and older, and every two years on vehicles 92 and newer. Every single vehicle requires Aircare in the Greater Vancouver Regional District. Buses, semi trucks, and trucks over a certain GVW are exempt.
I have now failed three times since buying this car, and have used up all of my licensing options. I have spent well over the $300 repair cost limit on my car, but because none of the "approved Aircare repair facilities" are aircooled VW specialists, I have chosen to spend my money at mechanics I trust and know or on parts to install myself, so anything I have spent is not applicable to that repair cost limit.
My options at this point are to license my car under my parents' address (thereby committing insurance fraud and not be covered in the event of an accident) or bribe one of the "approved Aircare repair facilities" to give me a conditional pass, which can and does happen more than Aircare would like to admit. Neither of these problems address the actual issue of horrible gas mileage, however, and are only short term solutions.
At this point, I am throwing in the towel. My mind is made. Bluebelle is going up for sale. She can live under a sheet in my garage until I am able to recoup my purchase price. I have scraped together enough to buy another vehicle.
I just want to say thank you for all of your help and support and advice. This entire process has been a good learning experience, even if the outcome isn't desirable.
Thanks again, guys.
Jen
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Jen. Slow down. There are numerous adjustments that are to be made. Swapping in an MPS...is not going to make you run clean by itself.
As I noted before.....the MPS has three adjustments. One single one can be done...and drop your hydrocarbons.
We needto know what the test results were at each stage of the dyno running.
We have Dyno testing (three stage) here in Dallas as well.
In order to pass emmissions, your valve adjustment must be spot on, the timing must be spot on, the ignition must be clean and hot and the fuel pressure must be correct.
If the car is failing on hydrocarbons it can be caused by something as simple as fuel pressure too high. Every 1 psi is about 3% of your overall fuel mixture.
You can also use that factor for passing emmissions if the report tells you how much higher than normal....your HC emmissions are.
If your NOX level is too high, it is generally because your advance is too high. Either your baseline timing is too high or...most commonly...you are over-advancing.
Use thetiming light. If at 3500 rpm...the timing goes past the 27 BTDC red mark...then you are over advancing. You can limit this by installing a screw in the end of the vacuum advance unit.
If bychance your vacuum unit is not working....this can cause high HC. Ray
As I noted before.....the MPS has three adjustments. One single one can be done...and drop your hydrocarbons.
We needto know what the test results were at each stage of the dyno running.
We have Dyno testing (three stage) here in Dallas as well.
In order to pass emmissions, your valve adjustment must be spot on, the timing must be spot on, the ignition must be clean and hot and the fuel pressure must be correct.
If the car is failing on hydrocarbons it can be caused by something as simple as fuel pressure too high. Every 1 psi is about 3% of your overall fuel mixture.
You can also use that factor for passing emmissions if the report tells you how much higher than normal....your HC emmissions are.
If your NOX level is too high, it is generally because your advance is too high. Either your baseline timing is too high or...most commonly...you are over-advancing.
Use thetiming light. If at 3500 rpm...the timing goes past the 27 BTDC red mark...then you are over advancing. You can limit this by installing a screw in the end of the vacuum advance unit.
If bychance your vacuum unit is not working....this can cause high HC. Ray
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412jen
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:55 pm
Ray, everything has been checked and tested and is where it should be. I didn't change the MPS until now because I eliminated all other factors first. The MPS was the last thing to be looked at.
The only thing it is failing is the CO levels, everything else is a pass. Which is the same thing as the first test I did back in September.
The only thing it is failing is the CO levels, everything else is a pass. Which is the same thing as the first test I did back in September.
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vwbill
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:01 am
Damn, Damn, Damn!!!!!!! Sorry to hear it's still not passing!! But hey can you tell us if there were any changes to the test levels?? If it's the same and you replaced the bad MPS it might be like Ray has said that the pressure could just need a turn of the screw on the pressure regulator?? Maybe like Ray said a leaking advanced unit? We need someone up that way to visit you with some simple test equipment like a fuel pressure gauge and timing light and a vacuum pump!! I can't really understand why nothing has changed? How close is it? Is it close? Please let us see the charts they gave you either via email or posting them to help us all out for you and further situations! Sorry Jen but if she is driving nice and has some performance then you must be very close!! Does she start good? Does she start off from a stop good transition? Does she buck if try a pass? Do you feel any missing at speed? Sorry Jen! Just please let us know more even though you are very frustrated!! Ray is the master and can get you to pass!! Darn I wish I was closer and could help! Is your oil leak a tranny leak or engine oil leak? Do the 4dr sedans have a filler oil neck or the tranny filler? Sometimes the filler necks can leak at the rubber metal tube connection! Any who hang in there Jen or slip the guys at the center a few bucks or maybe a guy at a approved center would give you a 300 limit if you show him what you have spent or maybe the guys at a VW dealer or a friend or family member knows someone?????? Sorry again! I do think you are very very close!! take care, bill
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412jen
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:55 pm
I'll post the reports and diagnostic charts later this week when I have a moment for those of you interested. It is failing at twice the maximum allowable, which is three times the supposed average reading. It started off by failing at three times the maximum. I suppose there has been something of an improvement but it still isn't even close to passing.
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412jen
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:55 pm
Does she start good? She starts excellent every time, even after sitting. No hesitation at all.
Does she start off from a stop good transition? I'm not sure what you mean here. YOu mean from when I am at a stop and then go again? No problem there.
Does she buck if try a pass? Not at all.
Do you feel any missing at speed? None at all.
Is your oil leak a tranny leak or engine oil leak? I don't know. Engine oil, I think. Something about "oil pan gasket". This was the least of my concerns lately and the amount of oil that is leaking is about a teaspoon every three weeks. It is not significant.
Do the 4dr sedans have a filler oil neck or the tranny filler? I have no idea. I have a 2 door.
The only "symptoms" I have of anything even being wrong is ridiculous gas comsumption and the fact that it won't pass Aircare. My mileage since September has averaged about 10 miles to the gallon. I bought the car from someone who lives in a different area than me (that has no emissions testing) who drove it on weekends and for fun only. He had no idea of its problems.
Does she start off from a stop good transition? I'm not sure what you mean here. YOu mean from when I am at a stop and then go again? No problem there.
Does she buck if try a pass? Not at all.
Do you feel any missing at speed? None at all.
Is your oil leak a tranny leak or engine oil leak? I don't know. Engine oil, I think. Something about "oil pan gasket". This was the least of my concerns lately and the amount of oil that is leaking is about a teaspoon every three weeks. It is not significant.
Do the 4dr sedans have a filler oil neck or the tranny filler? I have no idea. I have a 2 door.
The only "symptoms" I have of anything even being wrong is ridiculous gas comsumption and the fact that it won't pass Aircare. My mileage since September has averaged about 10 miles to the gallon. I bought the car from someone who lives in a different area than me (that has no emissions testing) who drove it on weekends and for fun only. He had no idea of its problems.
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albert
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm
good ,,m,p,s
hi, jen ,, i reed on the web , the bad coil , can do that ,, look if your coil geeve you 45,000 volts ( exam. bosh, blue coil geeve that ),,, g,l, ,,, albert