hey I just wanted to know , if I have a 412 with automatic gearbox and want to change it into regular gearing , could I use anything other then a gearbox out of 412/411 ?
thanks
transaxle
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Sure. But it will be a lot lot lot of work. A couple things. You will need to make a bracket and get an aftermarket hydraulic clutch set. Not too expensive.....but you would have torun the line, mount teh pedal assembly and probably cut part of the brake pedal pad awat to make room for it unelss you find the clutch pedal from a 411/412. Its the same underdash bracket for a auto as for maual. The manual just has a longer pedal cross shaft to install an extra pedal and spring on the other end. Thats not too hard to do either a simple piece of 19mm shaft and an extra bushing will do. The pedals from a lot of the late vanagons should fit on the shaft and be very similar. The clutch slave would need a bracket on the tranny similar to what the trannys had in the vanagon. It has a slave cylinder that pushes the standard clutch arm. Adding tubes and cables would be much harder.
Then there is the tail cone problem. On the 411/412 ...the cone and shift rod comes out the bottom and must fit through a hole with a bushing through the rear trailing member. The linkage is interesting and may or may not convert to standard type one linkage. The type 1's...and all other other VW trannys....have the tail shaft coming out the top. Ther is no room to go over the rear member without difficulties.
All of that being said....if you cannot find a 411/412 tranny......it looks like the 911 gearbox is an almost identcial fit. There are a couple threads on it somewhere. One of the best ways short of having a 411/412 box is to get teh 5 speed porsche box and a 411/412 pedal asssembly and amster cylinder. Run the lines and use a vanagon slave and modifed bracket to drive the clutch. After that....its just the shifter and linkage. Ray
Then there is the tail cone problem. On the 411/412 ...the cone and shift rod comes out the bottom and must fit through a hole with a bushing through the rear trailing member. The linkage is interesting and may or may not convert to standard type one linkage. The type 1's...and all other other VW trannys....have the tail shaft coming out the top. Ther is no room to go over the rear member without difficulties.
All of that being said....if you cannot find a 411/412 tranny......it looks like the 911 gearbox is an almost identcial fit. There are a couple threads on it somewhere. One of the best ways short of having a 411/412 box is to get teh 5 speed porsche box and a 411/412 pedal asssembly and amster cylinder. Run the lines and use a vanagon slave and modifed bracket to drive the clutch. After that....its just the shifter and linkage. Ray
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Ram
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:41 am
ok ray thanks
I have converted a semi auto 1303 to regular in the past so I know the difficulties.
maybe I could fit a box from other car maybe a subaro box could fit, I will look into it
the porsche conversion is practecly imposible for me there are less then 20 porsches pre 90's in my country because they didnt have a dealer over here back then, so I will have to import parts , I dont have that kind of money.
any way do you know how much HP can a 412 box handle?
I have converted a semi auto 1303 to regular in the past so I know the difficulties.
maybe I could fit a box from other car maybe a subaro box could fit, I will look into it
the porsche conversion is practecly imposible for me there are less then 20 porsches pre 90's in my country because they didnt have a dealer over here back then, so I will have to import parts , I dont have that kind of money.
any way do you know how much HP can a 412 box handle?
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
That I would like to know also.Ram wrote:
any way do you know how much HP can a 412 box handle?
Of course you have the usual conditions how to use it, but a comparison on strength with the strength of another tranny type would be helpfull.
AFAIK, the synchro's of these do not like quick shifts, in contrast to a bug-box...
Maybe others have different experiences.
(VW did make one 412 Variant with a factory installed 914 2,0 ltr engine with the same tranny afaik, so it should be able to at least take that load..?)
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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Ram
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:41 am
well I will share my story , about two years ago I was looking for a type4 engine to install in my 1303 bug , I contacted a guy that llives in a "kibutz" near the city of gaza, its is about 2 hours drive from were I live.
when I got there I found out that this guy collects old cars and bikes he was very friendly and showed me his collection... then he took me to the place where the engine was , it was a garage of the kibutz where they fix there tractors and cars ,and there it was a very dusty from sitting there for about 10 years the engine was allredy out of the car so we loaded it to my van, it was a auto 1.7 412 that used to have injection .
I installed the engine in my bug it was a blast!!
about a week ago I went to that kibutz to visit that guy ... and he told me I can have the rest of the car but he dosent have the DMV papers for it. I went to look at the car it is complete and rust free the main problem is, I think that I want it!
but automatic Vw's are for woman !
when I got there I found out that this guy collects old cars and bikes he was very friendly and showed me his collection... then he took me to the place where the engine was , it was a garage of the kibutz where they fix there tractors and cars ,and there it was a very dusty from sitting there for about 10 years the engine was allredy out of the car so we loaded it to my van, it was a auto 1.7 412 that used to have injection .
I installed the engine in my bug it was a blast!!
about a week ago I went to that kibutz to visit that guy ... and he told me I can have the rest of the car but he dosent have the DMV papers for it. I went to look at the car it is complete and rust free the main problem is, I think that I want it!
but automatic Vw's are for woman !
Last edited by Ram on Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Tuna is hitting on exactlywhat I was noting. The 901/915 tranaxle has the tail cone and bell housing to bolt right up. The shift gate may take some fabbing...but should not be too hard.
Wally, it is not the synchros that are a problem. I used to think that they were....but they are actually more precise than most of the other VW's. This trannys guts are very similar to the Audi 013 gearbox in the 4000 series.
The problem that gives the run of the mill type 4 "mushy" shifting is actually in teh shifter adjustment. Thats not to say that the shifter is of poor design.......just that it cannot be properly adjusted until three things are perfect: (1) The engine/transmission package alignment is critical. There is only one book that briefly hits on this adjustment. That is the "Clymer" manual. Save for the drivetrain alignment and heater section....the book is nothing but toilet paper.
It is simple but rather involved. It should require about one hour. It takes three special feeler gauges. I can e-mail the measurments of said gauges to whoever wants them. They take minutes to make on a bench grinder. All of your bushings must be spot on in condition in order to do the alignment of the drivetrain.
(2) The drivetrain MUST be aligned properly.......or it misalignes the slip joint/ball joint at the tail cone and shift rod connection. When that happens...it over rotates and makes the shift fork press too hard in one direction or the other causing drag on the slider assembly. This coupler problem....also makes it nearly impossible to adjust the shifter.
(3) Your hydraulic clutch must be spot on. It is usually less of a culprit that not having proper machining of the step ledge on the pressure plate...and therfore not having enopugh lift from the slave to fully disengage.
When these things are correct.....the type 004 four speed is a very quick and precise shift. I think I put some ways into a post a while back...that can help eliminate these problems.
I am also right now ...working on a Torlon shim of about .012" that fits behind the brass balk rings in the transmission. If it works...it will allow synchro rings to function properly though their "gap" has decreased through wear of the synchro hub. The problem is not that the synchro rings are actually worn out or out of round....just that when the depth of the synchro hub protrusion into the synchro ring is excessive.....it allows too much axial backfloat from the synchro ring. So....when the slider crosses the spring loaded "keys".....it must firt push the synchro ring into contact with the hub....across a very large gap...before that synchro ring can contact the hub and begin synchronizing movement. Having a shim behind the synchro ring will keep it much closer to the hub like it was when it was new. I will let you know how that works.
It should shift just like putting in new synchro rings.
The case on this transmission is magnesium alloy. It is pretty tough. It is essentially the identical ring and pinion as teh type 003 automatic....but without the cast iron differential carrier. But....it does have a cast steel, longitudinal pinion shaft carrier. If standing starts are not what you are looking for ......I would guess that it should carry about as much as any 914 tranny.
One of the problems I was just reading about on the transaxle forum with the 914 gearbox...is the long unsupported shaft on teh first gear. So drag racing causes the shaft to flex misaligning the gear and stripping it.
The 411/412 gearbox has a very long 18mm shaft that goes through teh center of the countershaft gearing. It is poorly lubricated and has two 20mm length needle bearing assemblies as its sole support. It is well support...but can take only limited pounding from a standing start.
But....that is also one of the simple "must-do's" that you must get done to drive a type 4 on a daily basis. You will need to replace that shaft......a simple 18mm shaft with a 15mm step cut in the end.....and replace teh bearings with a set of needles that have outer races combined (about $20 each)....I have the part #'s. The shaft is roughly $50 to have made anywhere. I then increase the oil hole size in the counter shaft and mount a plastic "scoop finger" onto the oil pan that protrudes up onto teh counter shaft between second and third gear. It works like an oil slinger to force oil into teh the counter shaft cavity. It gets rid of the wear problems all around. I have also found that putting a fluted delrin or teflon bushing into teh center of the countershaft onto teh 18mm support shaft...really takes the load off the bushings and helps distribute oil to the needles.
100% of all of these trannys will eventually die from the countershaft bearing problem. Replace them whenever the tranny is out and do these mods. If you wait until a needle bearing cracks....you will never be able to remove the counter shaft from the tranny....and then the tranny is junk.
If you want a full description of the things that need to be done to make these trannys live...let me know. They run very long miles and very smooth. Great gearing for the car and the engine characteristics. But since very few parts are still left...you mus get one that is in good shape...and do a few mods and replace the bearings and seals that you can...and they will then live another almost full life. Ray
Wally, it is not the synchros that are a problem. I used to think that they were....but they are actually more precise than most of the other VW's. This trannys guts are very similar to the Audi 013 gearbox in the 4000 series.
The problem that gives the run of the mill type 4 "mushy" shifting is actually in teh shifter adjustment. Thats not to say that the shifter is of poor design.......just that it cannot be properly adjusted until three things are perfect: (1) The engine/transmission package alignment is critical. There is only one book that briefly hits on this adjustment. That is the "Clymer" manual. Save for the drivetrain alignment and heater section....the book is nothing but toilet paper.
It is simple but rather involved. It should require about one hour. It takes three special feeler gauges. I can e-mail the measurments of said gauges to whoever wants them. They take minutes to make on a bench grinder. All of your bushings must be spot on in condition in order to do the alignment of the drivetrain.
(2) The drivetrain MUST be aligned properly.......or it misalignes the slip joint/ball joint at the tail cone and shift rod connection. When that happens...it over rotates and makes the shift fork press too hard in one direction or the other causing drag on the slider assembly. This coupler problem....also makes it nearly impossible to adjust the shifter.
(3) Your hydraulic clutch must be spot on. It is usually less of a culprit that not having proper machining of the step ledge on the pressure plate...and therfore not having enopugh lift from the slave to fully disengage.
When these things are correct.....the type 004 four speed is a very quick and precise shift. I think I put some ways into a post a while back...that can help eliminate these problems.
I am also right now ...working on a Torlon shim of about .012" that fits behind the brass balk rings in the transmission. If it works...it will allow synchro rings to function properly though their "gap" has decreased through wear of the synchro hub. The problem is not that the synchro rings are actually worn out or out of round....just that when the depth of the synchro hub protrusion into the synchro ring is excessive.....it allows too much axial backfloat from the synchro ring. So....when the slider crosses the spring loaded "keys".....it must firt push the synchro ring into contact with the hub....across a very large gap...before that synchro ring can contact the hub and begin synchronizing movement. Having a shim behind the synchro ring will keep it much closer to the hub like it was when it was new. I will let you know how that works.
It should shift just like putting in new synchro rings.
The case on this transmission is magnesium alloy. It is pretty tough. It is essentially the identical ring and pinion as teh type 003 automatic....but without the cast iron differential carrier. But....it does have a cast steel, longitudinal pinion shaft carrier. If standing starts are not what you are looking for ......I would guess that it should carry about as much as any 914 tranny.
One of the problems I was just reading about on the transaxle forum with the 914 gearbox...is the long unsupported shaft on teh first gear. So drag racing causes the shaft to flex misaligning the gear and stripping it.
The 411/412 gearbox has a very long 18mm shaft that goes through teh center of the countershaft gearing. It is poorly lubricated and has two 20mm length needle bearing assemblies as its sole support. It is well support...but can take only limited pounding from a standing start.
But....that is also one of the simple "must-do's" that you must get done to drive a type 4 on a daily basis. You will need to replace that shaft......a simple 18mm shaft with a 15mm step cut in the end.....and replace teh bearings with a set of needles that have outer races combined (about $20 each)....I have the part #'s. The shaft is roughly $50 to have made anywhere. I then increase the oil hole size in the counter shaft and mount a plastic "scoop finger" onto the oil pan that protrudes up onto teh counter shaft between second and third gear. It works like an oil slinger to force oil into teh the counter shaft cavity. It gets rid of the wear problems all around. I have also found that putting a fluted delrin or teflon bushing into teh center of the countershaft onto teh 18mm support shaft...really takes the load off the bushings and helps distribute oil to the needles.
100% of all of these trannys will eventually die from the countershaft bearing problem. Replace them whenever the tranny is out and do these mods. If you wait until a needle bearing cracks....you will never be able to remove the counter shaft from the tranny....and then the tranny is junk.
If you want a full description of the things that need to be done to make these trannys live...let me know. They run very long miles and very smooth. Great gearing for the car and the engine characteristics. But since very few parts are still left...you mus get one that is in good shape...and do a few mods and replace the bearings and seals that you can...and they will then live another almost full life. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Got to see that oneraygreenwood wrote: The 901/915 tranaxle has the tail cone and bell housing to bolt right up.
Probably just as strong as a 914 tranny huh? That is very reassuring good news!
I did recently buy a donor car with a running manual tranny, so we have s/thing to 'look into' and do some mods
About shifter couplings: when I bought 'Yellow bird', when I drove the car on the trailer (it wasn't road worthy), the shift-rod fell out all together...so there is probably something room for improvement there indeed.
At home again, I fiddled half a day with the shifter adjustment before it would shift half decent again...so you will understand my reluctance in tackling that job again
Ray, your info is - as usual - mind boggling. Especially since I would have thought that you yanks only drove and had automatics over there
Funny remark about the Clymer manual; I have one
since I am still not been able to track down an old haynes manual...Thanks a bunch; when I got some other things sorted out with the car, I will keep you to your promise about the shifter updates
Best regards,
Walter
PS Ram: for lowering options, do a search and/or scroll down the forum a few posts; we've covered that quite extensively
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Wally...when you finally get time to get into the 412 transaxle.....it will be a strange experience. This is a very unique design. Short of the gauges needed to set pre-load and pinion mesh depth....which can be gotten around.....there is almost "0" special equipment needed to work on and set up these transmissions. They are very.....Linear.
They are nothing like any of the other VW trannys at all.
The actual strength of these transmissions is the very stout single pinion/main shaft that is about 36" long! .
The transmission has a three piece case. Tail cone, transfer box which simply encases the main/pinion shaft and entire gear stack.....and actually is the holder for the counter shaft and the final drive section.
Disassembly up to the differential is roughly 30 minutes. When its at that point....you have the differential casting sitting vertically on a bench....and the long pinion with its stack of gears is standing up out of the case to about 3' high. The very large ball bearing at the end of that mainshaft snap rings into the transfer case to support the long shaft.
Only one word of warning when you start disassembly of one of these for exploration and knowledge. Dissassemble all of the main shaft gears, countershaft, transfer case etc. Get it down to just the bare mainshaft/pinion shaft protruding from the final drive case on the table.
It will become immediately apparent that measuring the pinion depth and longitudnal position of the final drive is very tight and tricky. Without a lot of thought....it seems impossible to measure the initial settings of the final drive without the very special factory mandrels. It can be done easily....but is slightly unorthadox. But....if you start removing the adjuster rings and the bellhousing nosecone before you get these measurements...it will be almost impossible to get it back correctly. If teh final drive of whatever box you tear down in quiet and in good shape....it will pay to get its setting measurements before you prcoeed further.
There is no manual in existance that has final drive adjustment procedures for the 411/412. Preserve what correct measurements you have.
All of that being said.....the final drive design of teh 411/412....is IDENTICAL to that of the automatic in the 411/412 and type 3. The Brown bentley manual is a large help in this respect.
The difference in these trannys and teh regular type 1 trannys is that these are a TRUE Hypoy gearing design. The pinion shaft crosses all the way to the opposite side of the ring gear and engaes offset to the centerline. This means that teh skwe bevel gearing is more extreme....and also that there is less friction and more quiet running. Ray
They are nothing like any of the other VW trannys at all.
The actual strength of these transmissions is the very stout single pinion/main shaft that is about 36" long!
. The transmission has a three piece case. Tail cone, transfer box which simply encases the main/pinion shaft and entire gear stack.....and actually is the holder for the counter shaft and the final drive section.
Disassembly up to the differential is roughly 30 minutes. When its at that point....you have the differential casting sitting vertically on a bench....and the long pinion with its stack of gears is standing up out of the case to about 3' high. The very large ball bearing at the end of that mainshaft snap rings into the transfer case to support the long shaft.
Only one word of warning when you start disassembly of one of these for exploration and knowledge. Dissassemble all of the main shaft gears, countershaft, transfer case etc. Get it down to just the bare mainshaft/pinion shaft protruding from the final drive case on the table.
It will become immediately apparent that measuring the pinion depth and longitudnal position of the final drive is very tight and tricky. Without a lot of thought....it seems impossible to measure the initial settings of the final drive without the very special factory mandrels. It can be done easily....but is slightly unorthadox. But....if you start removing the adjuster rings and the bellhousing nosecone before you get these measurements...it will be almost impossible to get it back correctly. If teh final drive of whatever box you tear down in quiet and in good shape....it will pay to get its setting measurements before you prcoeed further.
There is no manual in existance that has final drive adjustment procedures for the 411/412. Preserve what correct measurements you have.
All of that being said.....the final drive design of teh 411/412....is IDENTICAL to that of the automatic in the 411/412 and type 3. The Brown bentley manual is a large help in this respect.
The difference in these trannys and teh regular type 1 trannys is that these are a TRUE Hypoy gearing design. The pinion shaft crosses all the way to the opposite side of the ring gear and engaes offset to the centerline. This means that teh skwe bevel gearing is more extreme....and also that there is less friction and more quiet running. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
I like that!raygreenwood wrote: there is almost "0" special equipment needed to work on and set up these transmissions. They are very.....Linear.
Hmm, did I mention that I do have the factory VW manual on transmissionsThere is no manual in existance that has final drive adjustment procedures for the 411/412.
. I believe it also covers a lot of the type 4 transmissions. I hope I have all neccessay parts of the manual Have to check later...Thanks again Ray. Super informative post!
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
You have a factory Transmission manual....? . I would be interested in that!
There are two difficult tools to get around on the type 4 transmission. Difficult is too harsh of a word. Tricky would be better.
(1) The fatory dial indicator mandrel that fits in place of the differential (once you have removed it and re-installed the pinion carrier) between the side bearing adjuster rings to allow you to set the proper depth location for the pinion shaft carrier....so you can determine the shim thickness if necessary.
You can do without this tool....which can be seen in the type 3 bentley manual and is very unique....but it means a bit of careful work before you remove the pinion carrier
. It means that you must get an accurate dial indicator, pick a spot on the final drive housing where it mated to the transfer case and place a flat crossbar mount onto the case....and use a long extender mandrel on the dial indicator to reach about 9" into the differential case in an area you can hardly see to measure how far from the case parting edge the pinion gear is. Once you have that measurement....the rest is cake.
You simply put new bearings onto the pinion carrier while it is mounted in a vise .....use the next tool I will describe....to set bearing preload....and re-install teh pinion carrier into the case. Then after re-measureing the pinion depth you took with the long dial indicator mandrel......if its not right, remove the five nuts again, adjust the shim thickness and re-install. Done.
(2) The second tool is necessary on all final drives...but especially on the automatics and the type 4's because of their true hypoy nature. The bearing preload on teh differential side bearings and the pinion carrier bearings must be set properly.....not just estimated like most people get away with. If the pre-load is not set properly on these transmissions.....the pinion to ring gear backlash will be hard to set properly. If the backlash is not set properly........get this.....it will rarely whine to warn you of this problem. It will simply wear crooked and self destruct. This is because (as I have been told by a few people who worked on these).....the ring gear especially ...is a bit softer than some other cars to facilitae wearing in properly after initial setting....and therfore very quiet operation.
This tool is what some books describe as arotational torque measuring tool...or a hand dynamometer. It measures in inch pounds how much rotational force it takes to turn the shaft on a bearing while you are setting preload.
There are a great many fancy digital torque tools....of a very expensive nature....that could easily be adapted to do this. I have found two ways to get around this tool. (a) Use the SAAB factory manual method...of a non-elastic cord wrapped around the shaft......and a gram calibrated "pull scale"...or "fish scale"...attached to a 1kg weright. Then do teh math conversion to inch pounds. I have done that. its a bit of crazy math but I wrote it down and it works well. You have to practice it a few times to keep from fumbling.
The better method.....is to buy....and I am about to....a "flat beam style" manual torque wrench with min/max indicator stops calibrated in inch pounds. This is not to be confused with the standard dial type torque wrench with a "round" arm available for about $20. The flat beam type is accurate to about ...2% of the entire middle 75% of the scale (the useful range). The round beam cheapies are about 10% of the middle part of the scale. That is plenty accurate. They are about $170.
You need to install aspeed knob on the dead center of teh handle at the pivot point. Attach the socket end to the output stub axle of either the differential or pinion....oil the bearing....and give 10 moderate force rotataions. Stop and look where the max indicator moved to on the inch pound scale. Re-oil and repeat three times....average...and you have the answer to how many inch pounds of rotational force it required to turn an oiled bearing. If its wronng...re-oil, tighten the adjuster and repeat.
The beam type torque wrench is also dead useful on the type 4 for setting the preload on the rear wheel bearings. Ray
. I would be interested in that!There are two difficult tools to get around on the type 4 transmission. Difficult is too harsh of a word. Tricky would be better.
(1) The fatory dial indicator mandrel that fits in place of the differential (once you have removed it and re-installed the pinion carrier) between the side bearing adjuster rings to allow you to set the proper depth location for the pinion shaft carrier....so you can determine the shim thickness if necessary.
You can do without this tool....which can be seen in the type 3 bentley manual and is very unique....but it means a bit of careful work before you remove the pinion carrier
. It means that you must get an accurate dial indicator, pick a spot on the final drive housing where it mated to the transfer case and place a flat crossbar mount onto the case....and use a long extender mandrel on the dial indicator to reach about 9" into the differential case in an area you can hardly see to measure how far from the case parting edge the pinion gear is. Once you have that measurement....the rest is cake.
You simply put new bearings onto the pinion carrier while it is mounted in a vise .....use the next tool I will describe....to set bearing preload....and re-install teh pinion carrier into the case. Then after re-measureing the pinion depth you took with the long dial indicator mandrel......if its not right, remove the five nuts again, adjust the shim thickness and re-install. Done.
(2) The second tool is necessary on all final drives...but especially on the automatics and the type 4's because of their true hypoy nature. The bearing preload on teh differential side bearings and the pinion carrier bearings must be set properly.....not just estimated like most people get away with. If the pre-load is not set properly on these transmissions.....the pinion to ring gear backlash will be hard to set properly. If the backlash is not set properly........get this.....it will rarely whine to warn you of this problem. It will simply wear crooked and self destruct. This is because (as I have been told by a few people who worked on these).....the ring gear especially ...is a bit softer than some other cars to facilitae wearing in properly after initial setting....and therfore very quiet operation.
This tool is what some books describe as arotational torque measuring tool...or a hand dynamometer. It measures in inch pounds how much rotational force it takes to turn the shaft on a bearing while you are setting preload.
There are a great many fancy digital torque tools....of a very expensive nature....that could easily be adapted to do this. I have found two ways to get around this tool. (a) Use the SAAB factory manual method...of a non-elastic cord wrapped around the shaft......and a gram calibrated "pull scale"...or "fish scale"...attached to a 1kg weright. Then do teh math conversion to inch pounds. I have done that. its a bit of crazy math but I wrote it down and it works well. You have to practice it a few times to keep from fumbling.
The better method.....is to buy....and I am about to....a "flat beam style" manual torque wrench with min/max indicator stops calibrated in inch pounds. This is not to be confused with the standard dial type torque wrench with a "round" arm available for about $20. The flat beam type is accurate to about ...2% of the entire middle 75% of the scale (the useful range). The round beam cheapies are about 10% of the middle part of the scale. That is plenty accurate. They are about $170.
You need to install aspeed knob on the dead center of teh handle at the pivot point. Attach the socket end to the output stub axle of either the differential or pinion....oil the bearing....and give 10 moderate force rotataions. Stop and look where the max indicator moved to on the inch pound scale. Re-oil and repeat three times....average...and you have the answer to how many inch pounds of rotational force it required to turn an oiled bearing. If its wronng...re-oil, tighten the adjuster and repeat.
The beam type torque wrench is also dead useful on the type 4 for setting the preload on the rear wheel bearings. Ray
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Wally
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
I just have one of the volumes of the original VW workshop manuals that covers transmissions. As it turned out, it covers type 1,2, 3 and 4, so also the 412 tranny's. Tho, its not entirely complete I suspect.
When time allows, I'll try to make a picture of some of the pages as I don't have (acces to) a scanner..
Your in-depth desciptions of tranny tooling is way beyond me at this time
Tnx,
Walter
When time allows, I'll try to make a picture of some of the pages as I don't have (acces to) a scanner..
Your in-depth desciptions of tranny tooling is way beyond me at this time
Tnx,
Walter
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi in a streetlegal 1303
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11912
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
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d-Mag
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:52 am
901 tranny
Everyone keeps talking about the similarities between the 901 and the T-4 manual trannies. Has anyone actually done this swap???. I have both trannies sitting side by side and other than the fact the hockey stick is down on both they are not similar... First the 901 is about 1/2 inch longer than the t-4 and the casting where the shift rod comes out of is about 1/4 inch thicker, the whole tailcone area is more massive on the 901 as well, but this is the easy to get around stuff. The drop from the shaft on the engine end to the shaft coming out of the hockey stick is about 2 and 1/2 inches more on the 901 so there is no way it will fit through the hole in the rear member but perhaps it could clear it underneath (that would be ok ) but and it is a BIG but ... The shaft on the engine side of the tranny is in perfect straightline alignment with the shaft on the hockey stick side, the T-4 tranny is not , it's about 1 and 1/2 inches off to the left to make sure it goes through the center of the rear cross member because.... the T-4 engine is mounted in a T-4 about 1 and 1/4 inches off center to the right of midline on the car That's right go check it out on your T-4 . It is an offcenter installation. Who knew ??? Better yet WHY?? Any way does anyone have any bright ideas to get around this problem ? otherwise we may be stuck with what VW gave us with out seriously hacking up the car or having shift linkage hanging exposed under the belly of the car. I am interested in ideas, I'd like to do this conversion (automatics are a bit ho-hum boring and they don't have enough gear varability for"fun "hilly driving, on the flats they're OK )
, it's about 1 and 1/2 inches off to the left to make sure it goes through the center of the rear cross member because.... the T-4 engine is mounted in a T-4 about 1 and 1/4 inches off center to the right of midline on the car That's right go check it out on your T-4 . It is an offcenter installation. Who knew ??? Better yet WHY?? Any way does anyone have any bright ideas to get around this problem ? otherwise we may be stuck with what VW gave us with out seriously hacking up the car or having shift linkage hanging exposed under the belly of the car. I am interested in ideas, I'd like to do this conversion (automatics are a bit ho-hum boring and they don't have enough gear varability for"fun "hilly driving, on the flats they're OK )